Today I want to talk about what is a teacher and what is a student. It seems like at times I notice a fair amount of confusion about what is a teacher and what is a student. So I thought I'd talk about it. I usually talk about something else when I talk. It might turn out to be the same thing. But just to try it out, I'll tell you a story, first of all, about a number of years ago

[01:01]

at Centenary, we were sitting sadhana in the morning, when Suzuki Roshi was still alive. And you know, usually we would sit silently the whole period. This was, I think, a session. In this particular period of meditation, Suzuki Roshi started talking, and I don't remember so much of what he said, but he said several things about teacher and student. Like, if you think I'm the teacher, you're making a mistake. If you think you're the student, that's not right. Sometimes the teacher bows to the disciple. Sometimes the disciple bows to the teacher. If you want to be a good teacher, you have to be a good student.

[02:06]

If you want to be a good student, you have to be a good teacher. He said something like this. After a while, he peeped up on his feet more or less, took his little stick and hit everybody one after another. The first person he hit, he said, Who is the teacher? Bam! Who is the next one? Who is the student? Bam! After a while, he ran out of breath, and all he could do was hit. I mentioned this story to wake you up a little bit. See what you think. While you sit here, we sit here together.

[03:11]

The bird chirps. There's the sensation of your breathing. There's sensations of your weight. On the cushion, on the floor, on your chair. Are they your teacher or not? Do they say something to you or not? You can see right away with very simple, moment-by-moment experience. If you want to be a good student, you have to be a good teacher.

[04:14]

If you want to be a teacher, you have to be a good student. If you want the sound of the birds, the sensation of your breath, the physical sensations of your sitting, if you want them to speak to you, you have to listen. Otherwise, you know, after a while, things have to scream to get your attention. So, you know, we take our own good health often times for granted. One time, I was at a convalescent hospital. And many people there said, Oh, you're such a young man. You have your health. You should be very grateful for your health.

[05:15]

I was never grateful for my health. Now I'm old and I'm sick. And if I was just healthy, I would be so grateful. But what about when you have it? Then you need something else. So, you know, people come to Zen Center. People come to various groups looking for teaching, looking for a teacher. I mentioned there's some confusion about it.

[06:16]

And recently I was thinking about it. It reminded me of my experience in writing a cookbook and sending the manuscript to New York. And you know, in our cookbook, we put many little clues. Cook the onions until they're translucent. You know how onions start out kind of white and then you cook them for a while and they get translucent? Our editor wrote, how long? And we wrote, she also didn't like, you know, the construction, you. If you are using fresh pasta, she crossed it out.

[07:17]

If fresh pasta is being used. Well, how would fresh pasta be? You know, you walk into the kitchen. You discover that fresh pasta is being used. And then you react accordingly. So we had a lot of discussions with her. And this is true all the way through the book. Season to taste with vinegar. How much? I thought, well, if it says season, it's not another ingredient. No, it's a seasoning. You add a little bit and you see what does a little bit do. See if you can taste it.

[08:19]

So towards the end of the book finally it said, Cook the vegetables until they are as tender as you like. How long? How do we know? This is what she said, you know. Questioning the way we had written this book. And I think often times when people come to practice a spiritual path, they have the same kind of questions. And people think, you know, in a simple way, like if sitting one period of meditation is good, sitting two must be better. A few years ago I was at Tassajara

[09:24]

and the students were talking, and before the practice period we were talking about how much meditation were we going to do. And people said they really wanted to meditate a lot. And maybe we could have more one week sessions of meditating all day. So I tried to say something. I said something. I made a real effort to be very careful in what I said very carefully. I was very diplomatic, you know. I said I really appreciate your interest and enthusiasm and spirit for meditation. And I'm really willing, as I was trying to be the head of the practice period at that time, I'm willing to have more one day, two day, seven day sitting. But also I want to say that if you think the only place where you can you know, study and learn and receive the teaching is in meditation this is a mistake.

[10:24]

And then you'll be wasting a lot of time when you're outside the meditation hall. Thinking that that's not really where it's at. And then right away several people said but we're here to sit. And I thought I had agreed with that, you know. Anyway, that kind of thing comes up a lot. What is it that's of value? What is it that's of benefit? And then more must be better. And then if sitting meditation is so valuable then walking to the meditation hall must not be so great. Oh well that's still pretty good, you're on your way. What about walking out of the meditation hall? You know, what about when you're walking down the path? What about sweeping the garden? What about when you're washing the lettuce? Is it of value or not?

[11:27]

Is there any teaching there or not? Who is the teacher? Who is the student? So when this happened with our editor in New York you know, someone said oh well that's just the difference between New York and California. In New York you have the authority someone who knows. Tell you the novice who doesn't know exactly how to do it so you won't have to suffer ever the indignity of making a mistake and it will come out perfectly won't it? No problem and you won't have to have any anxiety any worry any bother you just follow the directions do what you're told and everything works just like the experts

[12:29]

you know and you won't have to observe for yourself whether the onions are white or translucent you know you can just look at your watch The period of meditation is 40 minutes I wrote a lengthy explanation to her about how to tell when the vegetables are as tender as you like how do we know you know your teeth can bite into them with a fair amount of resistance but not so much that your jaw gets tired of it and you know or a fourth bite like that anyways

[13:31]

see in California it's different well cook the vegetables as tender as you like well play it by ear follow your nose why don't you let it all hang out or whatever but I think it's more than just the difference between East Coast and West Coast I think it's a difference in mentality or psychology because we do have this deep wish and longing to find out how to cook something or how to live without anxiety will it come out alright are people going to like it are they going to like me you know what will people think of me what will happen to me suppose I can't do very well you've never had that problem

[14:31]

I can tell and it would be really nice if someone there was someone who could say well it's like this or it's like that or just do this just do that and people do sometimes and then you can follow that along for a while and then it's sort of curious somebody can tell you we'll just do this and just do that but you can't tell them you know it's just sort of one way relationship sometimes the birds are like that they sing and then why don't you listen to me for a while who cares so anyway

[15:47]

I don't think that the point of a teacher is to tell you or tell someone just what to do so you don't have to observe for yourself what's happening in your own life whether the onions are clear or translucent whether the vegetables are tender or not and the same for your own life you're sitting cross legged meditation and your knees hurt or your back aches well should I have this pain teacher what do I do when it hurts well you know well what kind of hurt is it you know are you going to ask somebody else what to do with it can't you figure out what to do with it and really you mean what can I do with it so it will go away you know I want to get rid of it

[16:47]

I don't want to have it I don't like it around you know somebody is supposed to help you get rid of what you don't like I like that story about the Zen teacher the student came to the teacher and said teacher what about the student who can't cope you know this story and the teacher said I can't cope either but you're a Zen master you're supposed to be able to handle everything and the teacher said if I could cope I'd be able to do something about the fact that you can't cope so you know perhaps a good teacher will give you back

[17:49]

give you the teacher back and you will be your own teacher you'll be stuck with being your own teacher once again you tried to get somebody else to be the teacher and you got it back what is it the birds are saying what is that teaching you here and there's lots of stories in Zen Zen tends to de-emphasize teachers to some extent you know someone will ask the teacher what does it mean that all things have Buddha nature and the teacher says I don't know and then the student says but you're the teacher what do you mean you don't know

[18:51]

he says go ask the poet you know things like that so where do you turn what do you ask how will you listen I want to tell you a little bit about my experience at one point sitting when I started doing meditation I thought well you do it the way you're told to do it sit down cross your legs sit up straight and then and then

[19:53]

you keep that posture right well at one point I would be sitting like this I would be sitting like this and the next thing I'd know I'd be sitting like this no that's not the way to do it you have to sit up no yes no I got in a little argument about how to do meditation with my back now who do you suppose is the teacher and who's the student you know am I going to teach my back how to do Zazen or is my back going to teach me huh what do you suppose chances are your back is going to win chances are your back has more to tell you than you have to tell your back

[20:55]

but I had to argue with my back for a pretty long time because I wanted to be I knew what the way to do Zazen was to sit up straight and my back said no and I said yes I know better than you how to do meditation well my back won I said you know you lose every time like the time I was sitting and my knee hurt and I said you're going to hurt me I'll hurt your back and I did now you're going to stop hurting no well then I'll hurt you more well you lose again every time you know you lose you know your knee wins, your back wins and then you have a new teacher you know you have something to study isn't this the way it works I mean how do you suppose we ever learn anything right you know rather than telling our body and mind and you know the rest of the universe how to behave

[21:57]

there are some things that just don't listen, you tell them how to behave they don't pay any attention do you ever notice this phenomenon it's the way the universe works anyway I found I had to study my under my back but it's an interesting dynamic there I thought well my back doesn't really want to sit back like this do you I tried it for a while well do you like sitting like this finally no I don't think so it gets kind of tired after a while well what about here and here and here where is a nice place where exactly do you exert some strength what muscles do you work where do you need to relax

[22:59]

how am I going to do it you know what I mean so you have to study your back if you want to sit you study with your back how to do it so you can sit way up like this and then there's many places to have your back all the way down to there so that's something you keep studying you listen to your back what does it have to say and it's very it's a little bit subtle because the first thing you hear is way back here and you have to understand that that's just a reaction to the fact that you're sitting up so straight and this is the same way when you know your relationship with other people and we make

[24:00]

you know the teacher will make the student who the student is and the student makes the teacher a teacher this is work this is study the teacher is not a teacher until you're a student just as you don't hear anything the birds are just birds your breath does it teach you anything or not do you study with it or not your breath becomes a teacher when you become a student of your breath the sensation of the light meeting your eyes the air on your face each phenomenon becomes a teacher when we are a student when I study when I listen

[25:02]

yeah so you see we try to write a cookbook like that to help you know to help you study not just a cookbook that says this is how to do it and you won't have to ever make a mistake you won't have to have a problem in cooking you won't have any anxiety it's gonna come out just follow the directions and it'll come out perfectly so this is

[26:04]

a very tempting thing to do to think that there is someone out there like that you know there was a student Jack Cornfield when he became a monk in South East Asia I don't know if you know but he was a monk in Thailand during the Vietnam War every so often they could hear the bombs going off across the border they were near the border of Forest Monastery they didn't do a lot of meditation there they took care of their temple early in the morning they went out to beg for food they had to walk 2-3 hours through the rice paddies to little villages for their food and people would be waiting for them 5-6 o'clock in the morning to give them food and there's no way you're not allowed as a monk

[27:04]

to say to the person thank you the only way you can express any thanks or gratefulness is to do your practice sincerely and wholeheartedly the only way is to repay this kindness anyway Jack was fairly young then and he was quite energetic and enthusiastic and he thought they're not serious enough here they ought to be doing more meditation so he went to the teacher and said I think we need to be meditating more and and have more serious practice here and you know what else you don't seem like a very enlightened teacher to me and the teacher said you're very fortunate

[28:06]

aren't you that's very fortunate for you isn't it why is that and the teacher said if I was to fit your image of what an enlightened teacher was you'd still be looking for the Buddha outside of yourself ... I'm going to read you a couple of stories ...

[29:07]

... this is from a book how can I help, it's called. How can I help? Wonderful little book. And part of the wonderfulness about this book is that it's not like there's some, part of what I find very appealing is it's not like there's some expert here telling you where it's at. It's just these ordinary people and they have these incredible insights. So here's one for example. I've been chronically ill for 12 years. Stroke, paralysis, that's what I'm dealing with now. I've gone to rehab program after rehab program. I may be one of the most rehabilitated people on the face of the earth. I should be president. I've worked with a lot of people and I've

[30:11]

seen many types and attitudes. People try very hard to help me do my best on my own. They understand the importance of that self-sufficiency and so do I. They're positive and optimistic and I admire them for their perseverance. My body's broken. But they still work very hard with it. They're very dedicated. I have nothing but respect for them. But I must say this, I have never ever met someone who sees me as whole, just the way I am. Can you understand this? Can you? No one sees me and helps me see myself as being complete, as is. No one really sees how that's true at the deepest level. Everything else is just

[31:16]

band-aids, you know. Now I understand that this is what I've got to see for myself, my own wisdom, my own wholeness. But when you're talking about what really hurts and about what I'm really not getting from those who are trying to help me, that's it. That feeling of not being seen as whole. I like that story a lot. And I think that that's one of the things that a teacher sometimes, you know, a teacher can do that for us. And I think it's the most important thing a teacher can do. Just to help us see, to help me see myself as whole, just as is. You know, so often you go to, you know, you come to a teacher

[32:22]

and you say, well I've got this problem, that problem, and then that person actually tries to solve it, helps you solve it for you. Without giving you so much the idea that you're okay, isn't it normal that you have this kind of difficulty? So I appreciate that about teachers oftentimes, who are able to give me that feeling. I had that kind of experience one time, well many times with Suzuki Roshi, but there was one time in particular that I remember when I was working in the kitchen in Sassahara. And you know how hectic it can be trying to get a meal ready for a lot of people. And shortly before lunchtime I was quite involved in getting everything ready, and I heard a voice calling my name. I don't know how

[33:25]

long that voice had been calling my name, but I heard this name being called, Ed. First, and then I, and then it took me a while to realize that that Ed was me, because it sounded like a really nice person who was being addressed. And I didn't feel like very much of a nice person at the time. I felt very, you know, frazzled, and kind of angry, and irritable, and trying to get everything done, and tense. And yet there was this voice saying Ed, and so it was a really nice person. And it was like this person, I had never, I had no idea that that was me. And it was like the difference between having a whole lot of storm clouds suddenly go away, and there's this beautiful blue sky, it's so vast, and the

[34:29]

sun is shining, it's so wonderful, very amazing, and yet not so amazing. Anyway, I think that's a special kind of, I don't know, I don't want to say special, you know, exactly, because I don't think he planned to do that, you know. He just walked in, and he just said hello, right? So what made him a teacher, you know? Who was the teacher then? Where was the teacher? So in that case, you know, something, someone out there awakened, touches something in me that I didn't know. But was it there in me or not? Already. It must already be here. Everything we need to know must already be here. I want to read you another story now.

[35:45]

As an intern, part of my work was to travel around in teams examining patients. I would notice their look as we entered. Intimidated, apprehensive, feeling like case studies of various illnesses. I hated that, but I was an intern, so I went along with it. I remember one guy distinctly, however, who was altogether different. I think this guy changed my life. He was a black man in his sixties, very cute, very mischievous, and very sick. What brought us repeatedly to him was the utter complexity of his illness, condition on top of condition, and the mystery of why he was still alive. It was so strange. We were visiting not to find out what was wrong with him, but why he was still here at all. I had the feeling he could see right through us. He'd say, hey boys, when we came in. The way you might when

[36:54]

a gang of ten-year-olds come barging into a house for a snack in the middle of an intense game outside. He was so pleased and so amused. It made some people nervous. I was intrigued. But for some weeks I never had a chance to be alone with him. Now and then he'd get into very serious trouble and he'd be moved into intensive care. Then he'd rally to everyone's amazement and we'd move him back. And we'd visit him again and he'd say, you boys here again, pretending to be surprised that we were still around. One night there was an emergency and I took the initiative and went to see him alone. He looked pretty bad, but he came alert a few seconds after I entered. He gave me a grin and said, well, sort of like he'd been expecting me. Like he'd known how much I'd come to love him. That happens

[38:00]

in hospitals. I imagined I'd look a little surprised at the, well. But we just laughed a minute and I stood there just so taken by who he was. And then he hit me with a single remark, half a question and half something else. Who are you? He said, sort of smiling. Just that, who are you? I started to say, well, I'm a doctor. And then I just stopped cold. It's hard to describe. I just sort of went out. What happened was that all kinds of answers to his questions started to go through my head. They all seemed true, but they all seemed less than true. You know, I'm this or I'm that and also, but not just. And that's not the whole picture. The whole picture is the thought process went something

[39:00]

like that. Nothing remotely like that had ever happened to me. But I remember feeling very elated. It must have shown, but because he gave me this big grin and said, nice to meet you. His timing killed me. We talked for five minutes about this and that. Nothing in particular children, I think. And at the end, I ventured to say, is there anything I can do for you? He said, no, I'm just fine. Thanks very much, doctor. And he paused for the name and I gave it to him this time. And he grinned at me again. Really, he did. And that was it. He died a few days later. When I carry him around today, I think of him now and again in the midst of my rounds. A particular moment or particular patient brings him back. Who are you? For years,

[40:10]

I trained to be a physician and I almost got lost in it. This man took away my degree and gave it back to me with, and also, and also, and also, scribbled across it. I'll never forget that. So, you see, we never quite know when we'll run into a teacher.

[41:18]

But when we'll meet the teacher, when we will be a student. And as soon as we are students, we are also teachers. And there will be those times when we realize our own wholeness. As is. Whether it's hearing the bird sing or hearing the sound of the onions cooking,

[42:32]

the smell of the bread coming out of the oven. And we won't be trying to make all the particulars perfect. You know, we have our wholeness already. We want a way to experience wholeness until everything is just right. When will that be? It can wait a long time. I think I'll close with a poem from Ryokan.

[44:06]

I may have told you this poem before, so here it is again. Yeah, I don't know, they don't get that old. I mean, it's only been around for a few hundred years already and they put it in a book. I mean, it's, you know, what the heck. What are we supposed to be getting out of this? Anyway, I don't really have anything you're supposed to be getting out of this. I hope that's clear. I mean, even though it might sound like there's maybe something to get out of it, but I figure giving a talk is like cooking. I mean, it's my job to give the talk and it's your job to receive it. You know, like if I cook and then I tell you, now you better like it. You

[45:16]

know, I mean, it gets really manipulative after a while, you know. Have another helping. You're not eating enough. You're eating too much. You should be appreciating it more while you're eating, not just scarfing it down. So I figured, anyway, my job is, you know, I offer it and then people say, yuck. Like Calvin, you know, in Calvin and Hobbes, he said, yuck, what's this? And his mom said, this is a vegetarian meal. And he said, ew, I hate vegetables. I'm a desertarian. Anyway, I don't know what you like or don't like, you know, and obviously I found out a long ago when you cook, you can't please everybody. You put oatmeal in the raisins and some people say, you know, who are macrobiotic, they say you're poisoning us and other people say, thank you very much. And you know, what can you do? So I figure it's my job to make this offering,

[46:21]

you know, and then you take it and you go, yuck, and you throw it over there or you sort of look at it for a while. Pretty cute. But you know, I might have a bite or two. And then on to something else. You do with it what you do with it. I can't help that. That's up to you. So anyway, this is all. To get to ryokan, you do with it what you want. It's sort of a simple poem, but it's sort of what we've been talking about today, sort of. He said, when you speak the truth, there's nothing but the truth. When you speak delusion, there's nothing but delusion. Outside of the truth, there is no delusion. But outside of delusion, there is no special truth.

[47:22]

It's kind of like you're already whole. Outside of delusion, there is no special truth. Followers of the Buddha way, why do you so earnestly seek for the truth in distant places? Look for truth and delusion in the bottom of your own heart.

[47:49]

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