Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. A few days ago we had a talk and in the question and answers we talked about meat and killing

[01:58]

and coffers and various things. So I know you have a lot of different feelings about this and thoughts and views. Because tomorrow we are going to encounter a Zen Ops and we have to find out, each one of us, how we want to do that. And how it is we intend to tangle with the Zen Ops. Some of you might like to just try to go up and pat him, or pet him a little bit. I don't know what he'll do in that case. Some of you may wave a cape in front of him and hope that he'll run past you, charge right past you and you won't get gored.

[03:07]

Some of you probably won't be quick enough to get out of the way when you try that and you might get gored. And then again, some of you may want to take on this Zen Ops life and death fashion. So today I thought I'd talk a little bit about this and I wanted to tell you that I was going to talk about this so you would know that that's what I was talking about. Because when I talk about what I'm talking about today you might not realize that it's about this encounter tomorrow unless I tell you. So now I've told you. So now I've told you.

[04:30]

It's not like you can just go up to the Zen Ops and say, Can I have the highest meaning of the holy truth please? Would you give me some enlightenment please? Something like that. Probably the Zen Ops will not be so accommodating just like a wild man wanting to get out of the cage. So of course, but in this case the Zen Ops might tell you to get out of your cage and then you can have whatever you want and so on. Anyway, today I wanted to bring up again the story of the monk who asked an ancient master, When the hundred and thousand and myriad things come, what should I do? And the master replied, Don't try to control them.

[05:41]

And as I said, Dogen, in commenting about this, I said, What comes is the Buddha Dharma, not objects at all. And don't think this is just a clever admonition. But even if you try to control things, they can't be controlled. What should you do? You know, always in a question like that, what should I do? And when I raise these questions today, I mean to say, this is in the context of what questions should I ask? What should I say? What should I do? There is always some hidden part to a question like that.

[06:48]

The hidden part is, in order to what? What should I do in order to what? In order to look good? In order to have a nice time? In order to not be hurt? In order to have people like me? In order to what? What does it come down to, in order to? What does this come down to? So oftentimes we ask this question now. I feel angry. What should I do about it? Or I feel this way. Or I think this. What should I do? And I think it's good if you remind yourself, in order to what?

[07:51]

So sometimes here at Tassajara, people say, in order to wake up. What should I do in order to wake up? Or in order to know the truth? So the other day I talked about initiation. I'm going to show you real quick where it says that setting aside the highest meaning of the holy truths. The highest meaning. What do you want? What do you want with the holy truths? This is the same kind of question. And I think we can even set aside the holy truths and just say,

[09:01]

what do I want? And we can say this in different ways. So I thought about it as, how will I give life to my life? And today when I thought about that, I thought, and how will I take life? Because as soon as you give life to your life, you take your life. Or there's another life. There's other lives you don't give life to. When you give life to your life. What will you do? What do you want?

[10:04]

And how can you, how can I awaken? How can I be present and shining? You know, leaping in the present. Like a fish leaping out of the water in the sunlight. What do you think? What do you think? You just sit in the pool all day. To heck with leaping in the sunlight. Well, it's nice and quiet there. In your little corner of the pond. And if that's what you really want, finally,

[11:17]

then that works pretty well. You know, until the day, like, the puddle dries up, you know, that sort of thing. Anyway, you know, we always have this kind of question. We want some safety. We want to be able to control things. But we want to know what we should do in order to control things. In order to make things be the way we want. That would be, of course, a big tangle. Trying to control things to be the way we want. And I think,

[12:25]

you know, you have to, of course, come to your own conclusion about this, but Buddhism suggests what we want is to not try to control things, but to be completely alive. And to be completely alive means it's not possible to control things. And we don't know what to do anymore. We're not in the realm of where we know what to do and things will come out okay. This is a realm where we don't know what will happen, so we call it the unknown. And we have this kind of curious kind of question, then, that we ask, you know.

[13:53]

How do we know what to do? How can I enter the unknown and still know what's going to happen? How can I enter the unknown and still be me? Still be someone that I know real well, and that I know myself and I'm comfortable with myself, even though there are these kind of things I don't like about myself, but I don't want to go into the unknown. I don't know what would happen to me then. So I raised the question before. What about your breath? What about this breath? Is it possible to breathe a breath? That you don't know anything about? Now, the thing about this, of course, is

[15:07]

one of the things about this is you might make a fool of yourself. Or you might make an ass of yourself. I read something yesterday. Robert Bly said, It's a very delicate matter, just making an ass of yourself. You don't want to make too big an ass of yourself, but just a little ass of yourself. That's all right. Anyway, don't worry. None of you can outdo the Zen Ox in this category. He has many more opportunities. What do you suppose it is, these 100,000

[16:15]

myriad things that come and that go? Yun Men said to his assembly, Without understanding, without any understanding, without having looked into the matter, when you hear people talk about the intent of the ancestral teachers, you immediately ask about theories of talk that go beyond Buddhists and ancestors. Or what is it?

[17:16]

But what is it that you are calling Buddha? Or what is it that you are calling ancestors? That you immediately talk about transcending Buddha and ancestors. What is it? Then you ask about escape from the triple world. But you take hold of the triple world to see. What seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing is there, existent to hinder you?

[18:23]

What phenomena of sight or sound is there that could make you understand, that you could be made to understand? What bowl, what bowl do you know how to use? On what basis do you entertain views of differentiations?

[19:30]

Those ancient sages, the ancient sages can't do anything for you. Even though they extend themselves to help living beings. Even if we say the whole body is entirely real, in everything we see the essence. This can't be grasped. This is ungraspable. And even if I ask you, in the end, in the end what concerns are there? This is completely buried.

[20:34]

All of you put on your robes and you say, I am practicing meditation. I am studying the path. And then you ask about talk that transcends Buddhas and ancestors. But I ask you, during the 24 hours of the day, when you're walking, sitting, standing or lying down, or when you're shitting and pissing with a vermin in a roadside pretty, when you're slaving away in the heat of the summer, in the Tessahara guest season, is there still a truth that goes beyond, that transcends Buddhas and ancestors?

[21:47]

Does it make sense? Does it make sense? Well, how would I recognize a big mind if I saw it? Sort of like that, you know. So in the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra it says, when an unskilled bodhisattva courses in the skandhas, courses in their production and stopping, courses in the skandhas as a sign, as signs, courses in the notion, I course or I do not course. When a bodhisattva who is skilled it means, does not course in the skandhas,

[23:37]

does not course in the production or stopping of skandhas, does not course in the skandhas as a sign, does not course in the notion of coursing. What about the reality that it doesn't have anything to do with anything? So practice has something to do with this kind of effort to not to course in the skandhas, to stop trying to control form, feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.

[24:45]

To stop trying to control, to stop trying to produce form, feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness and stop form, feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness. And to stop seeing, understanding the skandhas as a sign. Oh, because I did this, I am a good person. Because I did that, I am a bad person. Because this happened, I am miserable. Because that happened, it is a sign that I am a wonderful person. And this is a sign that people don't like me. And this is a sign that all these phenomenal experiences that we take is some sign of some reality. This is an unskilled bodhisattva.

[25:48]

So, what seeing, hearing, feeling and knowing is there that will hinder you? Why be hindered by it? And how is it that if we want to escape from the triple world, we could possibly do it by production or stopping of skandhas, by taking hold of the triple world? And thinking that our practice or enlightenment had something to do with phenomenal experience, however subtle or lofty. By what phenomena could you be made to understand? I heard a story recently, it is kind of a crummy story, but it seemed relevant.

[27:39]

This is a Christian story. It is about someone who had faith in God. You know like we have faith in practice. That it is going to do something for us. Eventually, you know, if we suffer enough. So this is a story about someone who had faith in God. So this is a story about someone who had faith in God and it started to rain. And so of course he thought that is okay if it rains, you know, God will provide. And eventually it became a flood and all of his neighbors started packing up and moving out. And there was whatever they do, you know, sending people around to tell people to evacuate. But he did not leave, he said that is okay, you know, I do not need to leave because God will provide.

[28:56]

And after a while the water was completely surrounding his house. And then this motor boat came by and they were picking up the stragglers and said, come on, you know, let us go. The flood was still getting higher and he said, no, no, it is okay, God will provide. And eventually the water got up to the second story of his house and by this time everybody had left but one last motor boat came by. And encouraged him to leave his house and he said, no, that is okay, God will provide. And eventually the water was up to the roof of his house and he was up on the roof of his house and a helicopter flew overhead,

[30:08]

making one last attempt to see if there were still any stragglers out there who had not, shall we say, had sense enough to leave the scene. And they said, come on, climb up. And he said, no, no, God will provide, it is okay, do not worry about me. So the next scene is when he is in heaven and he is seeing St. Peter or somebody. And he said, but I do not understand what I am doing here, you know, I have always had faith that God will provide. And St. Peter said, two motor boats and a helicopter, what do you want? Anyway, I thought that story had a bit of a Zen flavor to it.

[31:11]

But we do not always recognize the things that are right at hand and come to us and we do not always make use of them to save ourselves, as it were. And lots of times, you know, questions come up and doubts come up and things to say come up that are like these motor boats and helicopters. We say, no, no, but that is not what practice is. Or, no, I would look bad if I said that. I do not want to make a fool of myself. And we do not, you know, we think that we will continue our practice in some kind of isolation or safety, supposed safety, even though the water is rising.

[32:40]

And, you know, our practice will take care of itself and eventually we will wake up and something will happen, something nice will happen, I am sure, eventually. But we have passed up a lot of opportunities in the meantime. Thank you.

[33:51]

So what about trying something out? What about being taken for a ride? What about letting go of what you know? What is it that you call, that we call Buddha? What is it you are calling Buddha? What is it you call ancestor? What is it that you are calling me, I?

[35:06]

What is it that you are calling others? Is it objective? Is it something out there? Is it subjective? Is it just mine? Where does it all take place? Is it possible you could just dive in and swim about? Or what is it that you call winning and losing or making a fool of yourself?

[36:17]

What reality does it have? What is it that you call winning and losing or making a fool of yourself? Lots, damn it. I think I am about finished. My part of the talk. What about your part? Are all points of view equally valid?

[37:22]

And is there anything but points of view? Are all points of view equally valid? And is there anything but points of view? Thank you. So what do you think?

[38:58]

Well, if the answer to one is yes, the answer to the other is no. If the answer to one is yes, the answer to the other is no. Thank you. As soon as we say that there is something beside point of view, it sounds like there really is something that is graspable besides point of view.

[40:06]

So, sometimes we say that there is nothing and sometimes we say that there is something. So anyway, there is something besides point of view. And we call it emptiness or the unknown or the ungraspable or the inconceivable. We have lots of different names. But it is your experience before you have a point of view about it. It is experience, your experience that you have not categorized. It is the, what is it that you are calling Buddha?

[41:28]

What is it that you are calling ancestor? It is that experience. It is not a point of view. But that is not a something either. So, Suzuki Roshi once said something like so you should follow your breath until your breath completely disappears.

[42:32]

That is different than your breath is some kind of far out experience. But it is following or being intimate enough and close enough with your breath and your mind is soft enough and flexible enough and alert enough that you follow it. You are breathing so closely, so to speak, that it disappears. That experience as you have known it and conceived it and made points of view about it, that reality disappears. It is by presence and mindfulness and concentration and entering, immersing yourself completely in the experience.

[43:38]

It is not by going away from experience or avoiding experience or controlling experience. Betsy, you are shaking your head. Yes. You used a phrase which I don't quite understand. You say when you give your life, you take your life or when you take your life, you give your life. When you give your life, you take your life. I don't quite understand it. Well, in just a simple way, if I am talking, I am not being silent.

[44:45]

So I do away with the one who would otherwise be being silent. I take the life away from that one and give life to words. But then you can also think about it in terms of, you know, if you... When I said, when I was talking about how are you going to practice and enter the unknown and still be me? So we take the life of someone we have known and give life to someone we don't know. And that's a little bit, you know, you feel sort of suicidal or matricidal to do something you haven't done before, developing new habits.

[45:53]

When you try sitting up straight, well then, there is someone who is really used to slouching. Is it Dan or David? David? I think we are having some more fun. Slaughter? Yeah. Immediately. Oh yeah. Well, it might be for the termites too. Woodland. Yeah, I have the same feeling. I don't like trees very much. But anyway, you are putting it that way, it's really part of the question. I don't quite know what's going on here, which I suppose is good. Suppose I decide to go for it, raise the red flag.

[47:01]

What is raise the red flag? What? What does that mean, raise the red flag? In front of the bull. Oh, that. Yeah, because raising the red flag also means you are defeated. In India, during the debates, if you raise the red flag, you've had it. Laughter. No, but my... Laughter. Do you go for, I mean, do you go to understand or to question? From strength to strength? Do you go to understand a person's weak spot? Do you relate to the strength of a weakness? Which person, you or them?

[48:04]

You see what I mean? Well, that comes back to what I was saying. What are you, what is it about finally? Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Laughter. That's for you to figure out. Or find out. Or try out. Or fool around with. Give yourself some space to leap. Laughter. Mostly, you know, what I'm suggesting today is some feeling of spaciousness or freedom. Rather than, you know, well, do I do this or do I do that?

[49:06]

You know, how do I just leap out there? At the shoe sole. Or maybe it doesn't even have to be at the shoe sole. We don't know. Laughter. At this event there's, well, there's, in a sense there's some rules. I mean, we all come to this end before. That's one of the rules. But as far as what you do, there's no rules. That's the...

[50:10]

And there's no... As I was suggesting, it's not as though there's winning and losing. Or understanding or not understanding. What are those things finally? We just made them up. So it's mostly has to do... So I want to suggest more the feeling of revealing or giving life, bringing life, leaping forth. Some feeling like that. And we'll, you know, we'll call it various things. Somebody else? Laughter. Why is it you don't give life when you give life?

[51:30]

Sounds stuck to me. I don't know. Laughter. It sounds stuck or... You know, it reminds me of that poem, When a Man Cautious Hides His Limp. It sounds like, you know, overcautious. Protective. And even when you try to do that, then that's what you're, you know, giving and taking. Is there something else like that?

[52:58]

Yes, you can say it like that. Laughter. Well, let's enjoy ourselves. Thank you. You're welcome.

[53:53]

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