Good evening, once again. So I'm going to talk for a little bit and see what happens. I had an interesting experience recently I wanted to tell you about. I sometimes wonder what I'm doing up here and you're doing down there, but somehow I get invited to do these things from time to time. Because in certain ways other people are way more competent than I am and you know there's ways in which I'm not very well developed. I've been doing cooking classes for years and I'm a pretty good cook. But one of the things about cooking classes is I can talk for a little bit and then it used to be when I first started doing them I was very entertaining and people would listen to what I had to say and then as the years went by, the people coming to cooking classes started talking more and more with each other instead of listening to me.

[01:03]

And the classes became more and more social events and less and less classes. And I took this personally. You know, they should be more respectful. Why don't they listen to me? Don't they realize that they're not going to have a class if they don't, you know, close their mouths? And I tried to explain this to people for years. You know, if you, the less you talk the more I'll have a chance to talk and tell you things. Is that what you're here for? This is a class, right? We're planning to have a class together and I would try to explain this to people. It didn't help. And then I got, do you know what I mean by it didn't help? I mean, I tried to explain this to people and then, but within a few minutes of the class starting they're all jabbering with each other.

[02:06]

Just talk, talk, talking. And it's worse some classes I do and people right at the beginning of class open up a bottle of wine and like, that's going to help them concentrate. And I tried to explain to them like, the longer you can put that off, the more we're going to have a chance to get some cooking done. But I would find this very frustrating. Frustrating. So much for being a Buddhist teacher, you know, very frustrating. And so then I started trying out having, you know, I was at some Thich Nhat Hanh retreats and he has a little bell, you know, that he hits and he calls it the mindfulness bell. And then you hit the bell and we all breathe, close our mouths and breathe, you know, several times through our noses, you know, and smile inwardly and, you know, we hit the bell. So I would try this with my group and sometimes they just wouldn't hear the bell and just go

[03:16]

right on talking and then you hit the bell and you hit the bell. I had some classes and I just, I mean, different things happened. And there was some classes I was doing years ago in Bolinas and there would be times in the class when nobody was there. There'd be like 12 or 14 people there and then for a few minutes there'd be like three people. The people would have mysteriously disappeared and then they'd come back. And then while I was trying to talk about cooking and food, they'd be saying, and what are the winters like at Tushara? And I would try to explain that, you know, I need to focus and think about what to cook and how to cook it and how to get it done so that you get a chance to eat. And they're more interested in like having a conversation. It turned out, I only found out months later that they'd all gone outside to smoke dope. So of course they wanted to talk.

[04:17]

And they wanted somebody else to provide the food, not that they would have to. So I tried the bell and then there were times when, you know, and then one year the people started telling me, you know, I needed anger management, you know, counseling. One year, then I have sometimes at my classes I have assistants. So one year I said to the assistant, I'm going to start talking in a few minutes to the class and I'm going to ask them to be silent and I'm going to explain to them that we have a bell here. I want you to stand by the bell. And when they start talking, hit the bell to have them be quiet. So we were starting to cut something and I had shown them how to cut, how I cut things. So then they started cutting and then sure enough, within, everybody was talking and

[05:27]

then somebody asked me a question. So I started answering her question and then somebody else who hadn't heard that realized that one person already asked the question that I was answering that question and without even thinking or listening or knowing what was going on, asked me a second question. And I turned to explain that I was already answering the first question when the third question happened, not knowing that there was already two questions on the floor, so to speak. And then I turned to look and my assistant was over-talking to somebody. Like, could you hit the bell? And she was over-talking. So, I got upset and I had a fit. I'm not proud of it. It just seems kind of now, you know, a few years later, it seems kind of funny, you know.

[06:29]

So I had a fit and I said, you know, I can't do this. It's just not possible. It's impossible. I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't take it. And one person asked me a question and another person asked me a question and three of you are asking me questions and you don't even know that there's other questions being asked and I can't do it and I'm leaving. And I left. And I took my, many places I go, I bring a little thermos of tea because Spirit Rock is nice. I mean, they actually offer, when I get here, they say, and would you like some hot water or some tea of some kind? And I say, well, actually, thank you. I brought some. And so, I took my thermos of tea and then I travel with little ceramic cups because, I mean, you would want to drink out of something aesthetically pleasing. And, and it fits in the cup holder in my car, you know, and anyway, and I sat outside.

[07:39]

It was down in Tassajar and I sat and, you know, sipped my tea and after about five or six minutes, my assistant came out and said that, apologized for having abandoned the position at the bell. And then we sat and talked for a while and finally after 10 or 15 minutes, you know, I went back in and they were all sitting there. They hadn't moved, you know, and they were subdued, they were subdued. And then before I could say anything, one woman raised her hands and I acknowledged her and she said, Ed, you know, I had a very difficult childhood with, you know, a lot of physical abuse and I'm not sure I can be in this class if you're going to behave like this. So then we just spent the next hour talking about our childhoods.

[08:53]

So maybe this is useful, I don't know, you know, having a, we got to kind of know each other and then after an hour, you know, I said, well, it's about time for us to end the class now, do you want to end the class or would you like to cook now? So then we went ahead and did the cooking. So it kind of worked out and there were other years when people, this is a background for the story I want to tell you, you know, because this has been going on for years and I've been trying to figure out what do you do and I've been asking people for years, what do you do? How do you handle these situations? And it was, you know, and it also reminds me, of course, of years ago when I was at Tassajara and I was the cook, you know, and cooking food for 70 students and 70 guests and, you know, in a temporary kitchen and I had a lot more energy in those days though,

[09:58]

I could work 12 or 14 hours a day, you know, and at one point I went to Suzuki Roshi, my teacher, and I said, you know, the people I work with there, I don't know what to do with them because, you know, they get to work late and then, you know, then they start talking with each other and when they start talking, their hands stop moving. Seems to be either one or the other. They don't seem to be able to keep their hands moving while their voices are moving and they take, when they go to the bathroom, it seems to take them a really long time, very long bathroom, like 20 or 30 minutes to go to the bathroom. And I just don't know what to do. What can I do?

[10:59]

And he seemed to understand how difficult it is to get good help these days. I mean, I felt that he was being very sympathetic with me when I finished saying, and what am I going to do about this? He paused and then he said, if you want to see virtue, you'll have to have a calm mind. And right away I thought, wait a minute, that's not what I asked you. I asked you, how do I get these people to behave? So obviously this is something I've been working on for a really long time, you know, how to work with groups of people and what to do. And so recently I was doing a cooking class, it was in Ojai, and there was about 35 people.

[12:04]

So I started off telling them that we were going to do a cooking class and it would work better if they didn't talk, blah, blah, blah. And they were kind of looking at me like, uh-oh, who is this ogre? And then we started, and we were starting with making bread, and within two minutes the room was so loud, I couldn't say anything. I mean, I could say things to the person next to me, but there's a whole room full of people and I wasn't going to be able to get their attention. So I tried out one thing that somebody suggested to me, just go sit down someplace and wait for them to notice that you're no longer there. So I went and sat down on a stool in the corner of the room and waited for, you know, things

[13:13]

to quiet down, and one person who was near me said, would you like them to come over here? I said, no, I'm just waiting for them to realize I'm not talking anymore, or trying to talk. So then they all quieted down and they looked at me. So then I was trying out my second, or another, you know, strategy that somebody suggested to me. And this is like, when this works, it's like magic. So I thought I'd tell you about it, even though it's not especially Buddhist, but, you know, it's within the realm of, you know, Buddhist concept, I mean, it's interdependence, you know, mutual, interpenetrating arising, seen virtue. So I said, and it was almost the same words I'd said, you know, a few years earlier,

[14:15]

this isn't working for me, I'm not going to be able to teach a class with all of you talking. What do you suggest we do to make this work for all of us? That was the key. I asked for some advice, and for some help, instead of like, how do I, what do I need to tell them to get them to do what I want them to, I asked them for some advice. Does anybody have any suggestions what we could do to make this work for all of us? And the first person raised his hand and he said, in my world, in my business, when we want silence, anybody in the room can want silence, and somebody just raises their hand, and then if you see somebody's hand up, you raise your hand, and when your hand goes up, you close your mouth. We call it the lip lever. This is the, your hand goes up, your mouth closes, and then when enough hands go up, everybody

[15:22]

notices it, everybody gets quiet, and then you'll be able to talk. I said, well that's great, and then, are there other suggestions? So one person suggested I move where I was teaching in the room, which seemed like a good idea, so I said, that's great, I'll do that too. And then somebody suggested, well, we could talk quietly maybe instead of so loudly, and then we could notice maybe when you're ready to talk. So I said, well great, let's do all of those. So the whole room would get really loud, and then I'd raise my hand, and then pretty soon a few hands near me would go up, and then people started going, shh, and then all the hands in the room went up, and then I could talk. And so it would get loud, and then quiet, and loud, and it worked like a charm, and then we all got along, and we got the work done, we got done, you know, right on schedule. It was astounding.

[16:24]

Isn't that amazing? Like you could, you don't have to solve everything yourself, you could have a problem and invite participation in solving it, and you can keep asking for more suggestions if you don't like just the first one, you know, and get a bunch of them. See what ones you were willing to agree to. So when I've been able to do this, this has just been, you know, like this cooking class, it was like a charm. Hmm, so I thought about this as, when I was thinking about this today, I thought about this, about mindfulness, and I was also thinking about then, you know, part of my, what I found

[17:33]

out recently is that I'm a type A person. I think I may have told you about this before. And type A people, you know, the definition of it technically is that you're trying to do more than is possible to be done. So instead of just trying to do what you can do, or, you know, actually it's healthy to do about twice what you're capable of, because then you have to study and work hard at things. But when you get up to three, four, five, eight, ten times what you're capable of doing, it's not possible. So then you can have a lot of irritation, and frustration, and anxiety about whether you're going to get it done, and depressed about not being able to accomplish it. So, meditation is rather good for this, except that some of us, when we start to meditate,

[18:39]

then we want to be world-class. It's not enough just to meditate, but if you're going to meditate, you should be really good at it, or better than some other people, or most other people. And you should have something to show for it. But I was never much of a meditator, so it was perfect. Because no matter how hard I tried, I was never very good at it. So, I mean, I could do it. I could do a lot of it, but just not very well. Oh well. But I've survived, and I've kept doing it. So apparently this counts. You know, you stay with something long enough, and then people say, oh, you've done this for a really long time, haven't you? But I don't know what I'm doing.

[19:43]

I want to tell you a couple more things about this, and then I'm going to give you a Zen poem that I can talk about some more. So, because I want to connect the business about Type A with the mindfulness, in case you're wondering, like, is this going anyplace? So, it turns out that how you become Type A is no one is born Type A. When growing up, when you have insufficient, irregular, unpredictable, infrequent rewards of attention, approval, and affection, then you learn to work very hard to get those three things, attention, approval, affection.

[20:51]

And no matter what the result is, you just keep working hard to get it. So nothing counts as having gotten it. Do you understand? It's otherwise known as, in Buddhist lingo, samsara. You know, so I can write the Tassara Bread Book, Tassara Recipe Book, you know, whatever. And then you can have all kinds of successes, and it doesn't count, because what you know to do is just work really hard and knock yourself out to try to get what you're not getting. And who isn't giving it to you? This is the little secret that is eluding. Who is not giving you the attention, approval, affection? Because people are saying, thank you, and that's great, and we appreciate it, but who's not giving that?

[21:52]

It's like the Zen story, how do I attain liberation? And the teacher said, who's binding you? They are, they are. They don't like me. They're not approving, you know. So anyway, we do it, you know, which the one we're most likely to withhold attention, approval, and affection from is ourself. So it turns out that mindfulness is a really, really effective, useful way to give yourself, your experience, your own, you know, sensation, thoughts, feelings. You give them fundamentally, the most fundamental thing is attention. You start giving attention to your experience. It's giving attention that, you know, that most of us or many of us didn't get, you know,

[22:53]

when we were growing up. Mom and dad were busy, one way or another, you know, with one thing or another. And the second thing, you know, is approval. So mindfulness also has a kind of element aspect of approval, which is not judging. There's attention, and then not judging, oh, that's good, that's bad, that's not, you know, that's this, that's that. It's just like, oh, here it is, thank you. So mindfulness implicitly is kind of saying, instead of saying good, bad, right, wrong, mindfulness is saying, thank you. Thank you for giving me something to see. Thank you for giving me sound, sight, smell, taste. Thank you for the thought. Thank you for the feeling. And mindfulness has an aspect of affection. Many people, you know, have commented on that, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh says, you know,

[23:59]

when you practice your breath, you know, have a soft smile for your breath. When you practice mindfulness of your breath. And Suzuki Roshi used to say, if you're not being kind with your breath, that's not our practice. So attention, approval, affection, it's very deep, very basic, and meditation is a way to give yourself, you know, what otherwise we can spend a life, you know, struggling and working way too hard, and never actually receiving the approval, the attention, approval, affection that we so much would like to receive. So the poem I wanted to tell you is in a slightly different vein.

[25:31]

And this relates more to, well, I don't know that it's entirely different. I'll tell you the poem and then we can talk about it. This is a poem by a Chinese Zen master named Ru Jing, who was the teacher of a Japanese Zen teacher, Dogen, who traveled from Japan to China to study Zen, and then returned to Japan. The poem is, The Great Road has no gate. It begins in your own mind. The air has no marked trails. Yet it finds its way to your nostrils and becomes your breath.

[26:40]

Somehow we meet together like tricksters or bandits of Dharma. Ah, the great house tumbles down, the autumn wind swirls, startled leaves scatter and fly about. It's often easy to feel lost or confused, or again, you know, separate, unacceptable, unapproved, unlikable. The poem begins, The Great Road has no gate. The great road is, you know, the spiritual path.

[27:47]

The great way penetrates or, you know, everywhere. How could it be contingent on practice or realization? In this poem, Ru Jing says, The Great Road has no gate. There's no gate we need to go through. This is a kind of, you know, trust or confidence that even with all the ups and downs and difficulties and stress in our lives, we are on the great road, the great way. It begins in your own mind. It's not at all, you know, it's just not outside.

[28:55]

It's not somebody, it's not some road that somebody else is going to set you on or clarify for you. All of our life is beginning in our own mind. The air has no marked trails, yet it finds its way to your nostrils and becomes your breath. Our life, the air, you know, in Zen, there's the same word for sky is also, you know, translated sometimes, emptiness. So the sky has no marked trails.

[29:56]

Emptiness has no marked paths. There's no way, you know, that you need to, you know, do. You can find where you get it right and you know you're right or it's good. It's not bad. It's right. It's not wrong. We keep trying to find that. I get so frustrated in cooking classes. People, you know, we have a pot of tomatoes and I put some salt in. And some people will say, how much salt did you put in? Until I liked it. To taste, to my taste. But do you want to trust your taste or do you want to think that you can get it right by doing it the way I did it?

[30:59]

Are you going to learn to trust your own, you know, or are you going to follow your own? You create the way. You create the path. You create your life. Nobody else is going to create your life. And you'll have to find your way, just like the sky finds its way. Sky finds its way to your nostrils and becomes your breath. We each are finding our way out of, you know, from just some, out of some mysterious. How do we find our path? How do we get here? All the time we do this. You found your way here tonight. How did that happen? And then, you know, we find our way home. Maybe. Maybe. It's very mysterious. Somehow we meet like tricksters or bandits of dharma.

[32:03]

Oh, I thought we were going to all be students together. I love it. You know, tricksters or bandits of dharma. You're going to have to do some stealing. You're going to have to play some tricks here. Because if you just try to do what you were told. And follow the rules. And try to please mom and dad. And work really hard to try to get that approval and affection and attention from outside. Why hasn't it worked yet? You may need to steal it. It's a kind of stealing to just give it to yourself. It's a kind of little trick. You know, that you could finally deserve it or not. You could have it. You could take it. You could give it.

[33:07]

There was a Chinese Zen master, Yaku-san, who said. He was talking with a friend of his and his friend made some expression about the infinite and the lofty and some exquisite practice. And Yaku-san said, that's a rather lofty statement, wouldn't you say? And his friend said, well, what would you say? And Yaku-san said, awkward in a hundred ways, clumsy in a thousand. Still, I go on. Thank goodness there's some people like that in my lineage. Some of my spiritual ancestors. Otherwise, I would, you know, if I just had lofty teachers to look up to, you know, I wouldn't, you know, manage very well. Awkward in a hundred ways, clumsy in a thousand.

[34:23]

Still, I go on. This could be a lot of fun. So, ah, the great house tumbles down. Usually that kind of metaphor is, you know, the ego structure or, you know, the house of your personality and, you know, all this construction, all the things you, the whole structure you've created to try to succeed in, you know, with all the rules and the strategies and the plans and the circumstances and the reality that, you know, you try to keep going and how to function and live in that reality. And it all falls down. And what a relief, finally. The autumn wind swirls.

[35:24]

Astonished, the leaves scatter and fly about. This time of year, it's the daffodils and the tulips and the freesias. The spring rains. The spring rains fall and the flowers blossom. Hmm. Hmm. Things are happening, you know, way, you know, out of our control.

[36:45]

Hmm. The structure that comes tumbling down is, you know, the structure of how we try to control everything. Rumi, of course, says, don't go where you think you want to go. Ask the way to the spring. You miss the garden because you want a stray fig from a random tree. Let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really want. Hmm. Lately, I've also been appreciating a poem by Bill Stafford called Yes.

[37:52]

Bill Stafford used to, for a while in his life, write a poem every day. It was his practice. One day an interviewer said, Mr. Stafford, I hear you write a poem every day. He said, yes, I do. I get up in the morning. I start on my poem and then I have a little shelf to keep it. And then I have to get the kids up and get them breakfast and take care of things around the house. And sometimes during the day I have a few minutes I can work on my poem. And if I don't get it done sooner, I take it out at night after the house is quiet. And the interviewer said, but how could you do that? How could you write a poem every day, day after day? How could you be inspired like that, day in and day out? And he said, I lower my standards. For some of us type A people, we're not at standard lowering stuff.

[38:57]

I don't know. It's challenging. Anyway, the poem is, it could happen anytime. Earthquake, tornado, Armageddon. It could happen. Or, sunshine, love, salvation. It could, you know. That's why we wake up and look out. No guarantees in this life. But there are some bonuses. Like morning. Like noon. Like right now. Like evening. Kind of nice now and again to appreciate the bonuses, huh?

[40:18]

Or the blessings. To be still enough and quiet enough and to not be working too hard. Trying to do too much to gain or to earn attention, approval, affection, success, satisfaction. Kind of nice to appreciate the blessings. And it's possible, of course, even when we're in that space, you know, our pain and difficulty. We can touch with mindfulness. And rather than trying to hide pain or difficulty, we can touch it.

[41:20]

Rather than trying to pretend or perform, we can be with who we are. Be who we are. Settle into our own body and mind and being and accept and appreciate ourselves. And share our good-heartedness with ourselves. So that's about all I want to say. It's a few minutes after nine. Do we want to have questions? Comments? It's so nice and quiet now, so I don't know. But if it gets too noisy, I can... What do you think? How are you doing?

[42:23]

Yes? What's your lemon bar recipe? No. I'd have to look in the book. I don't know. I've gotten, you know, to... I've gotten now to where I just cook the things I know how to do. What do you think of alchemy? You're reminding me of that story about, you know, I think somebody asked Winston Churchill... Wasn't it Winston Churchill? Somebody said, what do you think about Western civilization? And he said, I think it would be a good idea. Yeah. I don't know. I'm more interested in fairy tales, really, than alchemy.

[43:38]

I just find it so interesting, you know? Like Rapunzel, you know? Rapunzel lives in this tower, and the witch says to her, if you stay here, I will give you everything you need and take care of all your wants. Does it sound a little bit like meditation? LAUGHTER Oh, boy. Yes, Millie? Yes. Oh, uh-huh. Thank you. Yeah. I think in Chinese medicine it indicates you have a pretty good spleen. So I've been eating right.

[44:49]

My cooking. Oh, boy. I work on these things. But thank you. Yes. Same virtue? Yeah. Yeah, I actually, at the time, worked on that quite a lot. I really took it to heart, and especially when I... for some number of months after that, when I was upset with people or disappointed or frustrated, I would look for virtue. I would endeavour to be calm enough to see virtue. And that led to a kind of recognition that, you know,

[45:51]

it's pretty challenging for any of us to be here on planet Earth. And I started seeing how courageous any of us are to show up in front of people like me who are so critical and judgmental. LAUGHTER And that they were really courageous, and they were also quite sincere. And sincere is very interesting, you know. No wax. Yeah. You use the wax to cover up the blemishes and the imperfections and make things look perfect. So to be sincere is to not have to cover up or hide. And I also saw, you know, the kind of...

[46:52]

that people are making... um... you know, in their own way, a very good-hearted effort. And I had... You know, over the years also, the Zen teachers who would visit Tassara used to come by and say, thank you for your effort. They didn't say, you know, thank you for... you know, the results. They said, thank you for your effort. There's an appreciation. So I began to appreciate the effort people were making, even though they weren't getting the results that I would, you know, like. And it's interesting, you know, those kind of things come and go, but you really do need to kind of... For most of us, it takes a kind of focus or reminder to be quiet enough and reflective enough

[47:54]

to see that as well as the... the disappointment or frustration we're having with what's happening and how it's not working out the way we wanted it to, etc. And, you know, to recognize one's own intention or effort. And eventually... you know, it began to occur to me that I was a nice person. Not... I mean, nice is not quite the right word, because, you know, that's one of those words that people who are in the... whatever world that is, you know, where they say, nice? Oh, that's where you're nasty, insincere, condescending, and evil. You know, who would want to be nice? But, I mean, I began to realize that I was a good-hearted person and that the fact that things didn't work out didn't mean that I wasn't a good-hearted person. So I'm a good-hearted person, and also things don't always work out.

[48:56]

You can put the same effort, and you make the same effort, and sometimes it's working out and sometimes it's not. So I began to appreciate that also, eventually. Yeah? Even though there's no gate on the road, is it a good idea to have a direction? No. That's a very interesting question, you know. I asked Suzuki Roshi one time a very similar question. Because, you know, one of the main points in his teaching, he used to say over and over again, you know, too,

[49:58]

practice meditation without any idea of gain. You know, what I'm going to get. What I'm doing this for. And, you know, always be looking for the result, as opposed to giving yourself attention, approval, affection. Tending to, taking care of your experience. And one time he said something to me about, you know, you need to practice with some more vigor and energy. And I said, well, but if I, what do you mean I need to practice with more vigor? I thought we'd practice without any gaining idea. And he said, if your practice isn't advancing, it's going downhill, backwards, fast. So there is some sense of, you know, which again,

[51:06]

direction is something that comes out of your being. You know, the direction is there. It's like, ask the way to the spring. Don't go where you think you want to go, ask the way to the spring. Or let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really want. That's direction. And it's coming, it's beginning in your own mind. That's the direction you want. Or, you know, can, comes about, arises. Okay, I like to end the evening. I mean, I have some announcements here too. But why don't we chant? I like to do the chant that's just, it's a Japanese word, ho. It's the Japanese word for dharma, Buddhist teaching. I like to chant ho as a way to turn over the merit and blessing of the evening, to share the bonus and blessings of our practice together.

[52:08]

The sound can resonate through your body, and in this way, the sound we share resonates, and we share our hearts with one another. And it's also a way we can send our prayers and blessings out into the world to all beings. Someone I saw this weekend suggested that we could be beginning to cultivate the image of George Bush doing yoga in the White House. Because apparently he's a jogger. He's a fitness freak, so he may need a little yoga at some point. But anyway, sharing our prayers and blessings and sending out our good wishes into loved ones and friends, family, and generally out into the world. So I'll hit the bell to begin, and we'll chant ho. Enter at whatever level or pitch when you run out of breath. Inhale and come back into the sound, and in a minute or so I'll hit the bell to end. You can finish the breath you're on. And you're welcome to, you know, do it with your body.

[53:12]

Let the sound resonate through you. And open your mouth, too. There's a difference between, you know, ho. Ho. You can make a very pretty sound that way. Or you start to, you know, add your throat. Ho. And then you can add your chest. Ho. And then, you know, a little deeper. Ho. And then you can get down to your abdomen. Ho. And then you can open your mouth. Ho. And then you can experiment with the shape of your mouth. But it's hard to do that, you know, the full-bodied sound and using your body if your mouth is closed. Ho. Just a little tip. Ho. Are you ready? This is...

[54:14]

And practice, you know, and sound practice in Buddhism is cleansing. This is a chance to let this sound wash through you. Okay? All right. Ho. Thank you. There was... You know, with the kind of energy we put into it, you get the harmonics there. It's pretty sweet. Upcoming events of interest. Let's see. Or end of evening. Next Monday night, May the 1st, we will be in the community hall with Jack Kornfield. Is that this room? No dinner. In two weeks, Monday, May the 8th, Jack will be joined by Bo Lozoff, founder of the Prison Ashram Project and the Human Kindness Foundation. Dinner will be served that night. It would be a great help if people could assist.

[55:10]

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