How's it going? Great. Well, here we are again. This afternoon I'm remembering fairly early on when I was the head cook here. You know, nowadays you need to devote yourself for several years to be the head cook. But when I became head cook, I had been cooking for two and a half months and practicing Zen for two years. Things were different in those days. And we didn't have a lot of rules, so I probably wouldn't, you know, if I came to Zen Center now, I probably wouldn't, like, last long. And I think I probably survived Zen practice

[01:09]

because I was working in the kitchen rather than meditating all the time. I'm not sure meditation is, you know, that great a thing to be doing, but that's another subject. I mean, you know, endlessly sitting there waiting for the big E. Thank you. Anyway, because when I would go and sit, I had a lot of involuntary movements. Nowadays people seem to just go there and they just sit. And I would sit down. And people tell me, you could stop that if you wanted to. And you're just doing that to get attention. And, you know, they tell me all kinds of things, you know, because people like to fix you. And everybody else always knows better about how to be you than you do.

[02:09]

Take your own advice. Anyway. So it was very challenging for me to sit very much. And in fact, the first Tongariro we had, you know, Tongariro is when, before practice periods, new students are asked to sit all day in the meditation hall. There's a little break after meals, with no periods of meditation, but just to sit there. And now before practice periods, it's five days. Before the first practice period in 1967, we did three days. And I worked two days in the kitchen. So I got in. But the night before the first Tongariro, you know, a number of people have been here, living here. The first practice period was July and August of 1967. And a number of people have been living here in May and June. And then the night before the first Tongariro, a dozen people up the road. We're not ready to sit for three days

[03:17]

in order to go on staying here. And then there was one person who sat three days in full lotus and then left the day after. We're not quite sure what he figured out. So I suppose you could say that I, you know, figured some things out over the years. So I can sit still now. Anyway, that's a different talk. Anyway, I was remembering. So when I worked in the kitchen and I was, you know, I was 22 or 23 years old and I was the boss. So I was a little bit like that 18 year old who was running for mayor of Mill Valley a year or two back.

[04:21]

And he said, hire me while I still know everything. So I was kind of like that. And I thought my job was to tell people what to do and that their job was to do what I told them. And somehow, and I thought that was Zen. You know, Zen is doing what I tell you to. And I'm not the only one who's thought this. You know, we also had Zen teachers who said that you're doing what I tell you is how you give up yourself. You know, you give up yourself by doing what I tell you. So I wasn't the only one. I wasn't authorized to be in that position the way that some people are called teachers. So after a while, after several months,

[05:21]

and I noticed people would talk a lot during kitchen. And usually when people are talking in the kitchen, their hands would stop moving. Most people cannot keep their hands moving while they're talking. Not with the same focus. And also people took very long bathroom breaks sometimes. Sometimes they came to work late. Sometimes people just disappeared for a while. Who knows? And I was pretty frustrated. So I finally went to see Suzuki Roshi and I told him that, I asked him, you know, I'd like your help on how to work with people in the kitchen. You know, you told me to wash the rice when you wash the rice and cut the carrots when you cut the carrots and stir the soup when you stir the soup. And all these people working with me don't seem to be doing that. And I'm wondering how to get them to actually practice then.

[06:22]

Wouldn't that be good? And I somehow thought it was up to me, maybe to make them do it. How could I get them to do what they should be doing? And I told him that people were talking when they came to work, you know, people talk about their dreams. Here we're not going out to the movies, so people can't say, I saw this movie. They say, I had this dream last night. And that they were taking long bathroom breaks and that they, you know, they were talking in the kitchen and they came to work late and they didn't seem to be particularly focused or attentive or concentrated or absorbed in what they were doing. And what should I do? And he'd been sitting there listening very carefully and kind of nodding his head. I think I had sort of the idea, yeah, you can't get good help these days, can you? Isn't it a shame? And then he was quiet for a moment and he said, if you want to see virtue,

[07:27]

you'll have to have a calm mind. And that kind of stopped me. I mean, I thought to myself, wait a minute, that's not what I asked you. How do you do that? How do you see virtue in others? So I started trying to study that. And when I would find something amiss in what somebody was doing, I would try to see also some virtue in who they were. Sometimes the climax for this was the day that somebody went to get 16 or 18 cups of beans and I would just forget. And then, you know, like a half hour later, I was like, wait a minute, he went to get 16 cups of beans. He's not back yet. And I went out to what was our storeroom then.

[08:28]

And he was there like checking each bean to make sure it was a bean. And I thought, well, I guess he's being thorough and very careful and conscientious. And I then endeavored to explain other ways to be thorough and careful and conscientious that didn't take so long. Like we do now, put the beans out on a plate and look at the plate. And another plate, something. But this same, this is a fairly important kind of question or issue this morning when we were cutting vegetables. So we had a good time with the radishes. There's something very charming about radishes. They're red and they're kind of like these little jewels that you get out of the ground and they're plump and they're round. So they're kind of friendly and kind of cheerful and

[09:33]

they have a little crunch, a little bite to them. And it's very, it's not so, it's fairly common to serve like, well, they're just radishes. They're just, it's just a little something you put in a salad. And we sort of, we're not always sort of ready to appreciate the virtue of radishes. So this morning we were appreciating the virtue of radishes and we cut them three different ways and we're tasting them and then we put them with orange and basil and we wanted to allow the radishes to, as Dogen says, let things come home to your heart. Let your heart go out and abide in things. Let things come and abide in your heart. And, you know, can we actually receive the blessings of our life? And we're, you know, because our tendency is like something has to be really special before it's going to touch us. And this isn't a matter of, you know, efforting or

[10:38]

it's interesting, as Suzuki said, if you want to receive virtue, you have to have a calm mind. And yet there's no way to sort of exactly, like, how do I do a calm mind? Because many people have pointed out that a calm mind is not something you can do. It's not something you can make happen. It's not something you can manufacture. As soon as you go and manufacture something, that's not calm anymore. I was sort of joking with people in the kitchen this morning. That's like, you tell your mind, we're going to be calm now. And it's kind of like talking to a two-year-old or a three-year-old. Right. So how are we going to do that? You know, so you could also say, if you want to have a calm mind, why don't you practice same virtue? Works the other way around too. Dogen says, for instance, about the

[11:43]

mind of realization, that this is not something you can manufacture or establish, make happen. And in fact, he says, it's not even something that you can discriminate. This is a calm mind and this one isn't. How do you even recognize which is which? The mind of realization. Well, so I found this an ongoing study for me to see virtue, both in myself and in others. How do I do that? It's sometimes quite challenging. And also then to see virtue in food. So I feel like, I think that the cook, and Dogen says this in the Tenso Kyokan,

[12:47]

to handle the food carefully and respectfully and take care of it and make a sincere effort. And when the cook appreciates the food, you have to appreciate something enough to offer it to others for their appreciation. And if you don't appreciate it, then it's hard to offer it. And then you think, well, this isn't good enough or special enough, or how can I offer something like this? And so then we're all a little bit in that situation. Am I good enough? Am I special enough in front of everybody else to be in front of everybody? What are they going to think of me? And is there some way I could just be sincerely who I am and I could appreciate the virtue in that, rather than I have to be special, I have to be different, I have to perform well, I have to do things right in order to get recognition, in order to be valued,

[13:48]

in order to have virtue. So this is our usual thinking. So Dogen says, when you're in the kitchen, he says, don't see with ordinary eyes, don't think with ordinary mind. That's the way ordinary eyes and ordinary mind works. We compare ourselves to others, we compare one thing to another thing, some things are good, some things are bad, some things are better, some things are worse. Am I good enough? Am I special enough? Is this? So we're busy doing this. And so the suggestion in Dogen's instructions to the cook is, make an honest effort or sincere, a sincere effort, or in a certain sense we say, be sincere. And that being sincere is another way of appreciating virtue in that sense. So I want to talk a little bit about sincerity. One day we were having tea with Suzuki Roshi and someone said,

[14:51]

Suzuki Roshi, why haven't you enlightened me yet? I think myself and a number of other people there kind of had this kind of reaction. Who? Who do they think Suzuki Roshi is? Who do they think they are? What were they thinking he would do? And there's a little tone in that of, are you singling me out for some reason to not enlighten me while you're enlightening others and not me? Or there's a little bit of, you know, I thought I'm doing pretty well and I deserve to have you enlighten me, but you don't seem to have done it yet. Anyway, there was several ways you could take that not very well, or see it as not being very respectful of Suzuki Roshi. When his son came here one time with all the abbots from the sub-temple, 16 of them,

[15:56]

it turned out there weren't enough places at two of our eight seat tables because nobody sat next to him. That was how you respected him. Just sort of funny for us, you know, like, wouldn't you sit next to him? But no, there's some space there. So anyway, Suzuki Roshi said, I'm making my best effort. And, you know, as I think about that now, I think he sure knew when to stop. He didn't say, I'm making my best effort. How about you? Are you sure you are? So I appreciate that very much, I'm making my best effort. And it's just a way of, you know, and then in a certain sense, you know, we understand in Zen, everybody is making their best effort.

[17:00]

And this is very hard to see. And it's very hard then to appreciate. And this is not seen with ordinary eyes and not seen with ordinary mind. So one of my favorite stories in Crooked Cucumber about Suzuki Roshi is when David Chadwick, I was the head of the kitchen. David was the head of the dining room. And David's way of doing the dining room is unlike the way anybody else has ever done it. He would wander around Tassajar in the afternoon and get to talking to people. And then he'd say, you know, I'm going to go set up the dining room. Now, why don't you come with me? So he kind of would be recruiting his own crew. We were very understaffed. He would kind of wander around Tassajar and meet people and kind of get them to come over and set the dining room with him while they went on visiting. And then somewhere through dinner, he'd be sitting down and drinking wine with them. And then at some point he'd be going back to their cabin and drinking scotch and brandy with them and being up until one or two in the morning. And then he wouldn't necessarily get to Zazen at five fifty. And,

[18:06]

you know, nowadays this would never be tolerated. Never. And maybe that's all for the better. And one morning, we then, after breakfast in the morning, some of us would have tea with the officers of the monastery. So David was head of the dining room. I was invited to go to that, but I very rarely did because I was just too busy. And there's the director and the work leader and people would go after breakfast to have tea with Suzuki Roshi. And we'd have tea and then he would talk and then he would say, and is there anything you would like to bring up? And the director said, David's sitting there having missed morning Zazen, morning service, morning breakfast, and just gotten up in time to get to the meeting, the tea with Suzuki Roshi. And probably, you know, you can still smell the alcohol. So the director says, Suzuki Roshi, what do we do with somebody who is always breaking the rules? And Suzuki Roshi said, well,

[19:10]

and well, you know, everybody's making their best effort. But Suzuki Roshi flagrantly breaking the rules, flagrantly, and over and over again. And Suzuki Roshi said, well, it's better if they break the rules in the open rather than hiding it from us. But Suzuki Roshi, shouldn't we do something? He's breaking the rules. And Suzuki Roshi said, well, sometimes people are following the spirit of the rules, even though they're not following the rules to the letter. And the director said, well, wouldn't it be better if you followed the letter of the rules as well as the spirit? And Suzuki Roshi said, yes, that would be best. And, you know, both these people are still disciples, we're both disciples of Suzuki Roshi's, but David Chadwick is the one who spent years of his life

[20:17]

accumulating the stories about Suzuki Roshi and putting them in the biography. And single-handedly basically saw to it that all the Suzuki Roshi's lectures were put on reel-to-reel tapes from these little tapes that are on these little machines and set up the whole Suzuki Roshi archive. And his energy is what made all of that happen. So what's a good student? You know, who has virtue? Nobody else was interested in doing that. And David very clearly loves Suzuki Roshi and spent years doing that, collecting the stories, seeing that the tapes are preserved, setting up, you know, seeing that money is raised to have the tapes transcribed. All the tapes finally were retranscribed. So, you know, Suzuki Roshi saw something in David which is different than what other people saw.

[21:18]

Other people saw somebody who's not following the rules, not doing what he's supposed to do, and didn't see, you know, David's heart. So the other thing that's interesting to me about, you know, I'm making my best effort is that making your so-called best effort, and this is a kind of Japanese Zen expression, is not about, you know, the results. It's that you just give your attention to something, and you work at it, and you spend time with it, and something happens. It's like doing meditation. It's not like, oh, and then people say, well, how was your meditation? Oh, it was great. I was so concentrated. Well, it's about the same whether you're concentrated or not. I mean, you just put in your time.

[22:22]

You spend time with yourself, and sometimes spending time with yourself is spending time with somebody who's upset or distracted or confused, and sometimes spending time with yourself, you're somebody who's kind of happy or content or, you know, focused or, you know, and that's the way it goes. There's no way to sort of say, well, I want to produce a magnificent experience moment after moment, and that will show how great I am and how good I am at this practice. No, we're just hanging out with somebody who's me, who's making my best effort. I'm doing what I can. Here I am, and, you know, something happens. So the aspect of sincerity, as I was mentioning the other day, some of you, sincerity actually comes in English, comes from the root, S-I-N is without, like sans in French, and sere is wax.

[23:25]

It's without wax, and the wax is what you can use to fill in the little wrinkles and cover in the little blemishes and cover over everything. So actually to not be sincere is to hide, is to hide behind your front, your, you know, your presentation, and you present yourself a certain way, but then you're actually hiding behind that, and to be sincere is the wrinkles show, the blemishes, you know, your difficulty is revealed. So we're in this unusual business of revealing how difficult it is for me to be me, how difficult it is to do my work, you know, to meditate. And as I do things, my goodness, you know, there's these problems. There's these wrinkles. It's not working out quite the way I want or would have liked, you know.

[24:27]

I'm not doing as good a presentation or a show of things as I might. So I very much, and partly, you know, for me, you know, I'm somebody who sat there in Zazen, and there were all these people sitting in Zazen. So there's always been, you know, people who are better than me, or they look better. They look better at doing, at being Zen. And I don't think, you know, I have a very good, you know, presentation that way, you know. So I've had to kind of just go ahead and be me, and go ahead and be sincere, and let people see my wrinkles, because I've just never been very good at, you know, at covering them over, at being Zen. If you have a question, I can clarify it for you.

[25:28]

And I'm not going to clarify much of anything for you. Oh, well. So anyway, and then, you know, to me, like radishes, or vegetables, or food, food is very sincere already. It's sincerely, you know, what it is. And radishes don't go like, why can't I be an eggplant? I'd rather be purple. You know, and they're just radishes, and they're happy to be radishes. They're very sincerely radishes. They're honestly radishes, and carrots are, you know, truly carrots. And the idea here is to appreciate something for being exactly what it is, and that's valuing the difference. And we have this sort of sense that valuing the difference is also appreciating the sameness, or the way that each thing is so completely what it is. And that completely what it is is, you know, beyond the differences.

[26:36]

That somehow that completeness, or that it's something we taste or appreciate the virtue of something, carefully enough. And then, it's like Roka says, this comes from far away. This is something from beyond. When we appreciate round apple, smooth banana, melon, gooseberry, peach, how all this affluence speaks, life and death in the mouth. I sense, observe it in a child's transparent features while he tastes. This comes from far away. That's the virtue of something. And it's the preciousness of something. Preciousness is something being exactly what it is, with all of its pluses and minus, you know, virtue and problems. And not that we only appreciate the preciousness of something when it's magnificent. And the problem, because the problem is, when is it ever magnificent enough?

[27:43]

So, one of my favorite stories is that simple story about the two monks who are walking along. And one says, this is the summit of the mystic peak. And the other one says, so what do you say, you know? Is this the summit of the mystic peak, or are you headed for some other place at this point that would be better than here, and more lofty? And the other monk says, yes indeed. Isn't it a pity? I figure that's dry Zen humor. You know, isn't it a pity that this is the height of our life? Being here. And with this body and this mind and these problems and issues and confusions and difficulty and fatigue and, you know, whatever. Feelings, thoughts, discouragement, encouragement, you know. And this is the summit of the mystic peak.

[28:49]

And the commentary about that story, of course, says a lot of people lose their heads trying to get to the summit. Oh, I've got to do this better. I've got to, you know, I've got to straighten out my mind. I've got to, you know, get these people to shape up. And I have to make better food and whatever, you know. And then I would be someplace. And the wonderful story about this is that also in the commentary, it says that a monk asked Zhao Zhou. And Zhao Zhou, you know, he was so, so to speak, known to be remarkable with his speech that it said the golden light came out of his mouth when he talked. So I don't know if that's metaphorically or, you know, literally, but this is what they say. I don't know Chinese culture enough to know. But a monk asked Zhao Zhou, how do I get to the summit of the mystic peak? And Zhao Zhou says, I won't tell you.

[29:54]

Of course, the monk wants to know, why not? Like we might ask, you know, why won't you tell me? Why haven't you enlightened me yet? And Zhao Zhou says, if I told you, you would go on thinking that you were still on level ground. And so this is our sense that we're not, we haven't arrived yet. So Zen is, we're practicing like this is, we've arrived, this moment we're arriving. We're at the summit. Let's see how virtuous things look and let's appreciate radishes and let's appreciate our sincerity and let's appreciate people's presence in our lives and let's appreciate people's sincere effort. And let's see if we can encourage one another, you know, in that way. And let's see if we can share the virtue of radishes with one another and lettuces and tomatoes and let them be tomatoes.

[31:04]

And that, you know, it's a tomato and we could, can we appreciate it? And sometimes, you know, we think, well, we need to do something to make the tomatoes worth serving. You know, we're involved in doing something often to make it better or somehow make it good enough. So the sensibility at some point, I mean, and I have a certain feeling for this. You know, I think it's nice to use some seasonings and things. And at the same time, I want something to be what it is. And here, try this. I think it's pretty nice. So, I think this is about what I wanted to talk about this afternoon.

[32:16]

So again, you know, we're not studying how to have a special experience or create a special experience. We're studying how to experience things closely, experience our experience closely. And it's not like any of us need to manufacture or produce special experiences. We're more interested in just experiencing things closely enough. And that experiencing closely enough is to see things clearly, to see things as they are. And we get confused with that, thinking that it's about our performance, thinking about how people see us, thinking about how, whether something's good enough. So seeing, not seeing with ordinary eyes, not thinking with ordinary mind, is to be out of that realm. And to then, and Dogen says, you let things come home to your heart, let your heart respond to things. Let things come and abide in your heart, let your heart abide in things. So, thank you very much.

[33:31]

Some of you, if some of you need to go, that's fine. I'm happy to spend a few more minutes if you have any questions or comments or further interests, sort of around this subject. Or others perhaps. I'll ask a question. It wasn't, I know it wasn't the point of the story, but something that really interests me is the idea that, I think what you said was accurate, public breaking of rules is not so much here anymore. People break them privately. I mean, most people know they're breaking them, but nonetheless it's very private. Not so out there. And I was wondering, do you really think it's better to break them publicly? This, you know, this partly has to do, I think, with, you know, who the abbot is, who the, you know, the spirit of the place.

[34:54]

But the, the idea there is that when you do things privately, other people don't have a chance to relate to you about it. And Suzuki said, why don't you just be yourself, then I may have some suggestion for you. Because then if I know you and meet you, I can work with you. And if you're not letting me know who you are, actually, you know, I can't, I don't know what to suggest. So it's in a particular context. And this is a very interesting point, because you're also reminding me of that when, you know, when Suzuki, when Tatsagami Rishi came, it was the fall of 1969. I mean, it was 1970, 67, 68, 69, the fall of 69, I think.

[36:03]

And he was this Zen teacher from Japan, and he instituted the monastic system here, which we hadn't had up until that point. So all of a sudden, there was a Zendo police. You know, there was going to be somebody, if you weren't at meditation, somebody was going to come looking for you. Before that, we didn't have a Zendo police. And at one point during that fall, we had a problem with people taking food from the kitchen. So there was a meeting with Tatsagami Rishi, and people said, you know, people are taking food from the kitchen and from the storerooms. And what are we going to do about it? And how do we get people to stop doing that? And he said, why don't you take the locks off your minds and put them on the doors? Because we were thinking, well, no, what you do is you get people to behave differently by some kind of mechanism.

[37:06]

You get them to do something differently. And he said, no, if you have locks on the doors, then you don't need to get them to do anything one way or another. That only worked out for a very short time, because, you know, we tended to be, in those days, this is the 60s still, we tended to be a group that practiced a fair amount of civil disobedience. So as soon as the locks were unlocked, so somebody could get in the storeroom, other people would come by and take the unlocked lock and throw it into the creek. Eventually, you know, this led to the backdoor cafe, you know, having food out that is available to people when they would like to snack. So they don't have to, so it doesn't have to be taking something that isn't given, something is given to them for them to take. And up until then, we sort of had overly high expectations. But anyway, it's a kind of interesting point too, because on the whole, Zen practice and the way that we do things here,

[38:14]

kind of depends on people following the rules. And if people on the whole follow the rules, we know what to do with them, or we think that this is working. And for the people who don't follow the rules, we say, I'm sorry, but you're not following the rules, you're going to have to leave. So we're not anymore very good at working with people who aren't, at least at an obvious exterior level, we're not very good with those people who aren't following the rules, or how to work with them, or how to talk with them, or what to do with them. But this is also related then to how do you manifest yourself or express yourself. And one style is, and many of us do, and especially spiritual people have some tendency to do, is I'm not going to reveal that much about me, because the less I reveal, the less likely it is that I will reveal something that's a blemish, and that will be a problem for other people that they will criticize me about. So I'm going to kind of keep to myself, and I'm not going to say much, and I'm going to be careful.

[39:20]

And so then people wonder how to communicate. And then somebody else is doing something that bothers them, and how do you talk to that person? They have not much practice at it, because you've been following the rules and doing what you're supposed to do, and then somebody else does something, and you have no practice at talking, you have no practice at expressing yourself. So the only way really to develop at something like communication, people sort of think if I meditate long enough, then somehow when I go to talk it's going to be really good. But actually the way to develop in terms of how do you converse, or how do you interact with somebody verbally, is you practice it, and you study, and then you see, well in a certain sense I broke the rules there, or I did something, and I watch and observe how my speech impacts others, and so I'm in a certain sense making mistakes, and by making mistakes I can actually then adjust my effort,

[40:31]

and notice what I'm doing, and try something else next time, and I keep thinking about it, and over a period of time I learn something about how to do this. So there's a certain value in going ahead and doing things outwardly that aren't working, and studying by doing that how to adjust your effort. This is what I'm going to teach in knife sharpening. You could look at what you're doing, and if you're doing it in a mistaken fashion, you adjust it. Whereas if you're not going to make any mistake at all, you're not going to sharpen a knife. Or if you think you're only going to do the things that you can do really well, well, can't do that, can't do that. Pretty soon you're taking away your opportunity to actually grow and develop and learn new skills. I love the story too about how Kuan Yin got 11 heads, because you know there's some Kuan Yins that have 11 heads. Sometimes they go up vertically, and sometimes they're two or three rows around this way.

[41:35]

The story is that Kuan Yin, who is the Bodhisattva of Compassion, decided one day to go to hell and save all the beings there. Now is this a good idea or not? So she worked very hard. People in hell are not very receptive. That's part of why they're in hell. They've been betrayed before. They've been abandoned. They don't have a lot of trust. There's some other place that you could go if you come with me. Oh, right. I've heard it before. So she finally gets them together and is leading them all out of hell. She turns around and innumerable more beings are wandering in, like it's the best place in the world. Her head explodes. Literally, nowadays we say, it blew her mind. So at that time, Amida Buddha gave her another head.

[42:39]

This is what happens to us. We go ahead and do things, and we come apart. It doesn't work, and we get another head. But if we're always careful and doing what we're supposed to, we're in a little too narrow a place. And then that's another kind of mistake. But it's actually, in some ways, a harder mistake to make, because you don't get to see what it is, and other people don't get to relate to you about it. So there's all kinds of degrees in this, but basically it's that in order to grow and develop in our life, we go ahead and do something in not such a good way, and then we learn something from that. Well, in Avalokiteshvara, all she learned was, I'm going to try again, I'll do that again. And she went back, and it had to happen ten times, ten is the number for innumerable times, before she had a head that would survive under the circumstances

[43:42]

of doing something that kind of, in a certain sense, fruitless. So it's a little bit like doing the dishes, and washing your dirty ones. And you finish one meal, and you start another one. And there's something about our life that is that kind of repetitious, and that it doesn't finish. So there's always a balance of these things, because at some point, people acting out, if they're acting out too dramatically, it's going to be a problem for everyone, and it's not conducive to the overall harmony of the situation, and so forth. So when it gets at some point excessive, then we do something. Some of us learn this for ourselves, up to a point. I mean, I used to think it would be nice to have attention,

[44:45]

so you can get some attention by being kind of crazy. But then it's sort of like, wait a minute now, is this the kind of attention I wanted? All right. Well, thank you very much. Some of us, we're going to do the knife sharpening at 4.30, so that's in about 10 minutes, and that's in the student eating area. And did you get my stone yet, Luke? From my room, to soak in water? Okay, thank you. You're all welcome. I mean, if you want to come to knife sharpening, you can. It'll be in the student eating area in about 10 minutes. Thank you.

[45:21]

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