Good evening. I thought you decided that it was a conspiracy to keep me from talking, that you would go on talking. I have a little sitting group in Centerville on Thursday nights, so they're the same way. But then after a while, some of the members rebelled and they said, you know, the visiting time is taking so long, your Dharma talk is not long enough. So you need to insist that people get back. So then if I don't hit the bell soon enough, they come over and start ringing it. And then there's some people who want to do their grocery shopping after the sitting's over and they don't want to get home too late. I think there's a television show at some time that they want to see. So they also want the talk to end by a certain time. You know, it's, you've got to fit the Dharma into the right slot. Well, for my talk tonight, did you find the meditation interesting or useful, the focus on the exhale?

[01:35]

It's pretty nice, especially this time of year. This is the wintertime, so wintertime is the time of disappearing into emptiness or, you know, there's not much growing. So it's the end of the exhalation, you know. So it's a good time to practice exhaling and letting go and then seeing what comes with the year, you know, in the spring. Well, I thought I'd tell you a Zen saying or there's a Zen teacher in China whose name was Ru Jing. Ru Jing was the teacher of the Japanese teacher Dogen who founded Soto Zen in Japan, a prolific writer. You know, Dogen, for somebody to, it's kind of like people, those of us who go off to Asia now to study, you know, it takes a certain kind of real commitment or desperateness or something.

[02:46]

You know, to go off to, and then, of course, later Dogen wrote, you don't need to go off to the dusty realms of foreign lands. You could practice right here. But that was after he'd already done it, you know. I did it, you don't have to, but Dogen was very sincere or serious about, you know, getting to the bottom of things. Suzuki Roshi used to say, you should try to find a teacher who is as sincere as you. There are plenty of good teachers. There are not very many good students. So in some way, you know, this puts the burden back on each of us, you know, to be a sincere student and to be, you know, to see if we can be a good student. And the more we are a good student, you know, we find teaching. This is similar to, you know, many years ago, I was the head teacher at Green Gulch, and Kadagiri Roshi was the abbot of Zen Center at that time.

[03:54]

So he came to visit Green Gulch, and we had tea with him one morning. And it's a semi-formal situation where all the tea is poured, and we wait for all the tea to be poured. And then, you know, when all the tea is ready, we bow, and then, you know, we drink tea. And we practice holding the teacup with two hands. I've mentioned this, I think, before, you know. Because your awareness is different when you hold something with two hands, and you feel more respectful. So we would have a sip of tea. Excuse me. And then, Kadagiri Roshi said, so does anybody have any questions? And the first question was, Kadagiri Roshi, what do we do when there's no teacher around? I was in this so-called position of being, you know, the head teacher at Green Gulch.

[05:00]

And he said, when there's no teacher, why don't you keep a warm spot in your heart for the teacher? And actually, this warm spot in your heart is the teacher, you know. Because the warm spot in your heart is what will connect or receive from the teacher, and from your family, and your friends, and from, you know, tomatoes and radishes, and from the ground, and the sun, and the sky. And the warm place in your heart can be touched. And, you know, you'll be nourished. So keep a warm spot in your heart for the teacher. So when Dogen went to China, he wasn't going to just study with anybody, and he met many teachers that he didn't think much of. And finally he met Ru Jing, and he decided that Ru Jing was the greatest teacher in the last 500 years.

[06:06]

Aside from Dogen, noticing this, not very many people, other people did, apparently. And, you know, one of the stories about Dogen is, well, first of all, the teacher, Ru Jing, wanted to recognize Dogen right away. He just visited him with him for a few minutes, and he said, you already understand. And Dogen said, you know, not so fast. So he undertook to study with this teacher. And he told the teacher, you know, don't be so easy to approve. And he, after a couple of years, and this is like, you know, this business of, oh, they would sit, like, for most of the day and night. You know, about one to four or something, you get to nap a little bit.

[07:11]

I don't know. So after a couple of years, there was one night where the teacher, and then the teacher used to sometimes, maybe he didn't have his stick or something, but he used to sometimes take off his slippers and hit the monks who were sleeping. And one night, you know, the middle of the night, he was hitting the monk next to Dogen, and he said, Zen is dropping body and mind. And Dogen dropped his body and mind. You know, as the saying goes. Somebody was reminding me at dinner tonight. They said, oh, I still remember your story from four years ago about the Zen Master Ikkyu, who, you know, he had this wonderful experience, something like Dogen say. And he went to then, he was out on Lake Biwa in his rowboat, and he had pulled up the oars, and he just used to float this way and that, meditating. And so after he heard this crow caw and he was awakened, he rode back to shore and went to see his teacher, and he told his teacher about it.

[08:13]

And the teacher said, well, Ikkyu, that's very good, but it's still not the enlightenment of the Buddhas and ancestors. And Ikkyu said, I don't care. It's good enough for me. And then his teacher said, that's the enlightenment of the Buddhas and ancestors. So we don't quite know, necessarily, you know, it's some poetic expression to drop body and mind. But this comes up again later in the talk in its own way. So I mention it now. And when Dogen then, he stayed in China, I think about four years, and he went back to Japan and they said, well, what did you learn? And he said, the eyes are horizontal, the nose is vertical. Anyway, I wanted to share with you tonight a saying of Rujing's,

[09:34]

or passage from his collected sayings. Somebody actually told this to me over the phone from Vermont, and they'd gotten it from somebody in California, you know, so I thought, this is good, I'll use it. So the saying goes like this, The great way has no gate. It begins in your own mind. The sky has no marked trails, yet it finds its way to your nostrils and becomes your breath. Somehow, we come together, like troublemakers or bandits of Dharma. Ha! The great house tumbles down. That's the old body and mind dropping off, right? The great house tumbles down. The spring wind swirls about.

[10:36]

Astonished, apricot blossoms fly and scatter. This is the saying. So, I thought I'd talk about it. And of course I won't stay too close to this, but it gives us some place to, you know, start and finish anyway. I figure when you're doing talks, it's useful to have a place to start and finish. Even if you wander around in the middle. Partly, in this kind of poem, I think it's useful to, you know, The great way has no gate. Why would anybody say that? Why do we need to hear that? It's because mostly we understand there's some gate,

[11:40]

and I haven't gotten in there yet. You know, we think there's many gates, and I'm still on the outside. There's something I don't understand. There's something I don't get. I'm still deluded. I'm mixed up. My life doesn't work so well. So, there must be some way that I just haven't gotten on to yet. You know, and people, you know, when people ask about how do I practice Buddhism, on one hand there's, you know, there's some instructions, and on the other hand, finally, there's not any recipe. The great way starts in your own mind. It started in your own mind a long time ago, before you even knew it as your mind. You know, your way began.

[12:43]

And from the Buddhist point of view, you know, we chose to be incarnated here, to come into this life. And we picked some parents. We may not have been picking very well at the time. You know, the Tibetans say to die is a big shock, and you're not necessarily making the best of decisions. Probably would have done well to have meditated a little more in your previous lifetime, and you might have made better choices. But anyway, now you have another chance. But this is also, you know, similar to the idea, then, that, you know, whether it's Robert Bly or James Hillman or Clarissa Pinkola Estes or whoever, you know, that, you know, you must have difficulties in your life and hindrances. There's no other way to have a human life. And we take on certain problems and issues and things to work with in this life,

[13:47]

and it's what creates our character, our personality, what brings us here. You know, I have a friend who is a woman who's a lawyer. That tells you something right there, right? There's not a lot of them. She says at a very early age she realized that her parents were kind of like out to lunch, or she couldn't understand, like, what she was doing with them. Why was she with these people? So she learned, actually, from a very young age. I mean, she, so now she's very independent. She decided, okay, well, to heck with them. I'm going to take care of it. I'll do it. So she's very independent. She's very determined. She got through law school. She's a lawyer. She has a lot of, you know, she left California, moved to Idaho.

[14:51]

And, of course, then when you're that independent, it's sort of like, how do you have relationship? I mean, everything ends up having its price, right? But we each have our story. You don't come into this life blank and empty, and we don't get here like that. Each of us is the way. We have a way. We are on the way. We're on the path. There's not some other path that you can go like, well, I want to get on the real path. I like the Buddhist one. It's not going to be like the one that I'm on, certainly. There's too many rocks and boulders and crevices and potholes on my path, thank you, anyway. But, you know, I want the one that's paved and, you know, maybe some better shoes or, you know, a nicer umbrella or whatever. But we're actually, we're already on the way. The great way has no gate. And we keep thinking like, well, how do I get in there?

[15:56]

So, Ru Ching says, you know, there's no gate. The great way begins in your own mind. So this is also to say in a simple way, you know, the biggest, simplest thing any of us do in our life is to decide to take on our life. Okay, I'm going to do my life. I'm going to take responsibility for it. I'm going to stop blaming Mom and Dad and God and Buddha and other people and, you know, it's up to me. And that doesn't mean I don't have friends or teachers but, you know, I'm going to take this on, see where I go from here. And, of course, I have, you know, the challenges and difficulties and the blessings and the strengths and weaknesses and everything. And in the same fashion, you know, the sky has no marked trails.

[17:02]

Yet it finds its way to our nostrils and becomes our breath. This is, you know, and this is the way our life, each of our lives go. We're like, you know, the air. There's no actually marked trail. And yet we find a way, you know, we find our way in our life. But it's not because it's the right way or the Buddhist way. It's because, you know, somehow we just find our way. And it's not about it being the best way or the right way. It's just we find it. Like the breath, like the air comes to our nostrils and becomes our breath. We get married, divorced, we have kids, we have jobs. On to the next thing. And it's tempting, you know, certainly I have the, again,

[18:05]

somebody reminded me tonight of another talk I did. I have the idea I could, you know, do this better. You know, one of the classic things with the New Age, sort of like what I think of as kind of New Age-y kind of philosophy or whatever, is that, you know, mostly, you know, the people who do meditation are kind of the older souls. I don't know what that means when you get into souls that are kind of timeless. Like how you can have older ones and younger ones. So there's something I don't understand about that. But it is kind of interesting that on the whole, people who want to do spiritual practice, it's kind of like, you've made enough of those other mistakes, it's kind of like, I've done enough of those other mistakes, why don't I just not do that anymore, and why don't I kind of... It's kind of like this, in simple terms, you know, like, don't just do something, sit there. And we've kind of got that. Like, I'm tired of just doing something, I think I'll sit here. So in that sense, you know, people who do spiritual practice tend,

[19:10]

the error tends to be not doing rather than doing. Rather than doing the wrong thing, if there's any error at all, it's not doing anything. And of course, that's exactly what people accuse, you know, people who do meditation of, you know, you're not doing enough, you know, go out and save the world or, you know, I don't know, something like that. But anyway, I've tried it various times, you know, to, like, not disturb anybody. Not be a problem, not be a pain. Like, you know, I wouldn't want to cause suffering. And this is very difficult to do, especially, like, in a personal relationship. You know, so, and pretty soon, you're, you know, I get to be, like, I'm so careful, I'm going to be so careful, I'm not going to do anything. And then pretty soon, you know, I hear, like, this is really annoying the way you're so paralyzed and stiff like that.

[20:11]

So then, you know, no matter what, you must be a failure. And I don't know, you know, it's very easy to check, but you can try, for instance, you know, if you just turn your head a little bit from side to side, you can take any simple motion. If you want, you try this, turning your head, right, just a little bit. And then, and then just try thinking, like, how am I doing? Am I doing a good job at turning my head? And then your head kind of jerks along. Have I gotten it, you know, and then you can go back to just turning your head, and then you think, have I gotten it right yet? And you're frozen, you know. And then you can just be moving, and then you can think, men are so undependable. You know, women can't be trusted.

[21:17]

So whatever you, you know, whatever your judgment is, you know, when you try to do it right, when we try to get it right and, you know, get to the, you know, succeed and become better, you know, we actually, so-called in Zen, you know, we lose our way. This is how we get off of, from our, you know, from the great way, by deciding that actually there's a small way to get it right. So as soon as you have some idea of how to get it right, you make yourself very small and narrow in order to do just the one right thing. And you narrow your facility and faculty for a whole wide range of behavior and, you know, possibility in order to just do the right one. So this is the problem with having a recipe, having instructions. In Zen, it's called gouging a wound in good flesh. And yet, you know, instruction is useful.

[22:20]

Suzuki Roshi used to tell us, you know, this is back in the 60s, right? So, of course, in the 60s, the big, you know, the word was question authority. And Suzuki Roshi used to say to us, you know, all of you, you've rejected the materialistic society. You know, the People's Bakery was giving away free loaves of bread and, you know, there were, the diggers were, you know, distributing, you know, had this, you know, free soup kitchens on the street and free goodwills and, you know, all kinds of things were going on. And Suzuki Roshi said, so you've rejected materialistic society, but you still want to improve. Isn't that kind of materialistic? And then he used to say, too, you know, you think you want to live a selfless life. Isn't that kind of selfish?

[23:25]

So this is not so simple, any of this stuff, but as soon as you set out to be selfless, then how can you just even move your head? Is it selfless to move your head? Which is selfless? Which isn't? Now, you know, you'll get, you know, stiff by trying to do the right thing, trying to be good, trying to be selfless. Pretty soon, you know, the breath is not finding, the air is not finding its way so easily to your nostrils. Anyway, this is pretty interesting. So, the next line of the poem, I appreciate then very much, you see. It follows right from this, right? Somehow we come together like troublemakers or bandits of Dharma. This suggests you don't have to be on your best behavior in order to, you know, do Buddhism. You know, Suzuki Roshi used to say, encourage your students to be mischievous, or your children.

[24:32]

You know, we'll all end up being, you know, troublemakers. We can't help but cause trouble. So then the question is, you know, what kind of trouble will you cause, maybe? But it's different than the idea of, I'm not going to cause any trouble. And if you're trying, again, if you're just trying to be, when we try to be mischievous, when we try to be on our best behavior, and not be a troublemaker, you know, now we're narrowing ourself down to see if we can just do the approved thing. This is similar also to Juno in Buddhism. There's Avalokiteshvara, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, sometimes has a thousand arms. So it's said that if Avalokiteshvara takes one arm and concentrates, you know, just on what arm is doing, the other 999 arms become useless. So this is what happens when, you know, we're not going to be a troublemaker. When we're going to get it right, then pretty soon

[25:41]

we have to concentrate on just this one arm, and we lose the other 999. Of our full capacity to enter into our life, meet the things of our life, and respond to the things of our life. And bandits, you know, many Zen saints emphasize that you steal Buddhism from your teacher. Nobody's going to give you a thing. It's not just nobody's going to give you, it's just not possible. It's like Robert Bly talks about the Buddha's teaching, you know, the new man who's grown up with women's liberation. So now we have a generation of men, he says, who are, they're sympathetic,

[26:42]

they're soft, they can cry. And yet they're missing something. So, and they're trying to be sensitive and listen to, you know, the women in their life. So what are they missing? You know, they're missing something to do with, you know, coming into their own power, having their own authority, being true to themselves. It doesn't necessarily mean not doing any of those other things, but nobody's going to give that to you. Nobody's going to give you your own authority. You know, when the Buddha sat, he was attacked by the armies of Mara. There's all these things and arrows and spears and everything coming towards him. And they're falling, you know, they're turning into flowers as they get there and falling to the ground. How'd he do that?

[27:44]

But also, you know, at some point there, you know, Mara questions him and says, who are you to sit like this? You're not going along with, you know, the rules that you agreed to. You said you'd try to be a good little girl. You said you'd try to be a good little boy. He didn't say you'd just go and figure this out for yourself. So if you decide, like the Buddha did, I'm going to get down to the bottom of this, I'll figure this out for myself or like Dogen or, you know, any, you know, teachers in the long Buddhist tradition. There's some decision, I'm going to figure this out for myself. And the Buddha touched the ground, said the ground is my witness. So nobody, nobody says to the Buddha at that time, you know, touch the ground, touch the ground. Nobody gives him that to do. He gets that, you know,

[28:48]

the great way begins in your own mind. That comes out of the Buddha's own life. The ground is my witness. So you have to steal that. And, you know, none of us, none of us, you know, we all decided, you know, essentially when we come into this world as a baby, you know, and mom and dad are in charge, and we're dependent on them. And they didn't say, you're in charge. You can be your own authority. No. You know, you have a lot of constraints put on you and you agree to go along with the program. It's called survival skills and, you know, you make yourself small in various ways in order to last. So then how do you get, you know, how do you get then so then when do you get to touch the ground and say, no, I'm going to, I'm going to sit here. I'm going to figure this out for myself. Does anybody give that to you?

[29:51]

No, you're just, you're breaking the rules now. Because up till now, up until you'd make that decision, which is a kind of theft then or banditry or troublemaking, up until you make that decision, you said, no, I'm going to, I'll be the person you want me to be so that we all get along here. Or I'll be, I'll see how I can fit in with this family. You know, that's what we all decided. So at some point, you know, even to practice Buddhism, even to sit still, it's, it's against the rules. So anyway, in Zen we understand that you steal the teacher's way. You steal your teacher's way. To study Buddhism is to steal the Dharma. Because it's outside of your, of our normal ways of behavior.

[30:58]

You know, just to notice something is, or to be present. You know, basic, again, basic Buddhist practice, be present. Don't run, don't hide. See if you can show up here. You know, not, and not be one year old or two years old or three years old or, you know, be a little spatially displaced out of your body, you know, in front of your body or behind your body or up on the ceiling. But, you know, here. See if you can show up and be here and not disappear. And how often were we encouraged to do that? And how intimidating was it, is it for any of us as parents, you know, kids are such incredible bundles of energy and at some point it's kind of like, whoa, give me a break. So for any of us to, you know, we, you know, to be here, even to show up and be present, it's against the rules.

[32:01]

It's against, you know, or we don't do it much in our culture. It really strikes me when I go to the grocery store. All these disembodied people walking around. It's just astounding. You know, you're lucky if you meet one, if you run into one, you know, alive person in the store. And even then you may not recognize them. Who was it? I saw somebody from here. Is it Debra, Diana, who works in the front office here? I ran into her at United Market and it was like, wow, a person. Anyway. So this is, you know, why, you know, in another vein you could say, that obviously to be present takes courage.

[33:02]

To actually be here for what is happening in your life, there's a certain amount of courage involved. Because nobody knows what happened, what's going to, you know, our basic problem is we don't know what's going to happen next. And so then are you sure you want to show up for it? Maybe it would be better to kind of be a little back from what's happening, a little at a distance and then see if it's going to be good. You can see if you can get there for it. And if it's not so good, you can retreat further from it. And the problem with the strategy is we're never fast enough, you know. So we spend all our life a little bit removed from our experience, just in case. So this willingness to just be right there on the spot and present and experience what our experience is, and that's life too.

[34:04]

So this house that comes tumbling down, ha, you know, the great house comes tumbling down, the house that comes tumbling down is this whole creation that we've made of self. And then, you know, just to be present, you know, you're not maintaining self. To maintain self you have to be a little absent. You know, Rinpoche said, ego is the paranoid suspicion that you exist. Anyway. So the house, this kind of house is usually considered in Buddhism, you know, self, a kind of construction we have. And how do we maintain our idea of who we are and what we're up to? How do we, you know, get people to treat us that way? You know, as the special person

[35:10]

we like to think of ourself as. I thought, you know, especially after doing spiritual practice, people would be quite a bit more respectful towards me, but... So far, you know, most of the time it doesn't seem to faze people at all. But anyway, we have some idea of keeping going and maintaining the whole way that who we are. And as you know, the saying in, you know, rhythm and blues, country music is everybody wants to get to heaven, but nobody wants to die. And actually to, you know, for it to come alive in your life, you'd have to drop something about, well, the way I always do, the way you, you know, the rules. I better not say anything now.

[36:11]

You know, let them all talk. It's scary, you know, to expose myself. It's scary for me to talk. I better just listen. I better do this. I shouldn't do that. And we go on, you know, being the person we're accustomed to being, and then we wonder, like, why doesn't it work any better? So again, something, you know, in our life is asking us, you know, to go forward. Something in our life wants us to go forward, wants to, wants to know, experience the wind, the wind, the spring wind, you know, swirling. We don't want to spend all our time in the safety of our little house.

[37:12]

Concentrating on the little things we're doing to make sure that it all works. And we want to, you know, know something, you know, we want to experience the apricot blossoms flying and scattering, swirling about. So this is also to, you know, meet somebody, you know, to be present, to meet yourself in sitting. Intimacy, finally, you know, is with our own body and mind, getting to know ourselves and being willing to meet ourself. And many, many, you know, selves that we hadn't acknowledged previously will show up to sit with us. And of course then we decide, and then they say, why don't we leave? You've probably had that experience, right?

[38:22]

Meditating and then somebody says, let's get out of here. This is boring. Oh, no, no, it's spiritual practice. Excuse me. It's really boring. And sometimes, you know, it's necessary to say, why don't you show me how you would do it? And, you know, rather than wandering off with them, you know, somewhere else, you invite them into the meditation to enliven things. So, you know, somebody... Anyway, someone invites us or, you know, there's some vitality to our life that wants us to go forward, you know, and come alive and not be bound

[39:24]

or, you know... In this sense, liberation is, you know, freeing yourself from your own imposed rules. And traditionally, actually, for Buddhism, you know, one way to free yourself from your own rules is to take on the rules of meditation. You follow the rules of the practice rather than your rules. You follow the... You do it the way it's done rather than the way you decide. So this is fascinating, you know, which is which? Which is coming into your own and which is, you know, getting caught up in making yourself smaller. So when you do use, you know... So in Zen, you know, we understand, you know, following the rules and doing the practice is actually how you wake up because you have a chance to let go of your rules and your idea. And also we understand when you know what to do

[40:30]

and you can just do that practice. Same in Vipassana, you know, you just do the practice. Then, you know, some... Then you understand something about your character because then everybody, you... Everybody does it their way even though it's the same practice. Kind person does something kindly, strong person does something strongly. And you realize yourself even to realize like you've been hiding or like you've been afraid or you're sad or you're depressed. So we actually made ourself interesting enough by doing some particular practice. This is like... This is similar to, you know, if when... Apparently, Picasso used to have his students try to draw a perfect circle.

[41:31]

And so when you're trying to draw a perfect circle, you concentrate very carefully over and over again. Is there some way to do this? And you start to notice like what is your mind while you do this and what is your body? Is there some way that you can, you know, maybe, you know, anyway, how you organize yourself to do this circle to be free enough to do a perfect circle. Then after trying to do this many, many days, you realize, oh, it can't be done. But, you know, it's not the point whether it can be done or not. The point is you really focused on something because you were trying that hard to draw a perfect circle. And then it turns out, you know, the way your circle is lopsided is something about who you are, something about your character. And we're not actually trying to get rid of our character but we're trying to get rid of it.

[42:47]

You know, sometimes the big rock that's at the middle of your personality and seems to be in the way of everything, you make it the centerpiece of your garden. You don't try to keep, you don't keep trying to dynamite it. It's the centerpiece of your personality, of your character. Why would you want to get rid of it? And you fit things in with it instead of trying to, thinking, no, no, no, I need a perfectly smooth level garden here. I don't want a big rock here. And sometimes, you know, you realize, oh, I'll leave the big rock. This, you know, is similar to James Hillman and Michael Ventura in That's a marvelous little book. It's easy to chuckle about that but, you know, it's 2,500 years of Buddhism and the world's getting worse. So, we've, us Buddhists, we've got a head start on these therapists.

[43:47]

But, you know, they bring up, one of the ideas they bring up in there is it may not be necessary for you to process everything. Why don't you leave some parts of your being unprocessed? You know, it could kind of like be the wilderness of your psyche. You don't have to mine and harvest and cut down all the timber and make it all useful and process it and, you know, turn it into good stuff. There's just going to be some wilderness out there. And you may as well leave it, you know, at some point. And appreciate it as a wilderness rather than, you know, trying to fix it and improve it. Pacify it. Civilize it. My friend Kaz Tanahashi used to say, he has a show opening over at JFK. You know, he, Kaz studied with, Kaz, we have a book actually, Zen Center has another book coming out next month,

[44:50]

another book of writings about Dogen, of Dogens. And Kaz translates with us but he's also a brush painter. And he leads our translation team and I worked on one passage with him from Dogen. And by the way, that book also includes when Dogen got to that monastery in China. They put him at the end of the seniority list, you know, behind all the Chinese monks who had been ordained after him because he was Japanese. So he even, Dogen even wrote a letter to the emperor of China saying, don't you think this is kind of chauvinistic and narrow-minded and don't you think it would be good to have a nation date regardless of whether you're Japanese or Chinese? Anyway. So we have a book coming out next month. And Kaz, Kaz studied with the founder of, I'm probably getting towards the end of this talk

[45:53]

because it's getting towards the end of the time and you need to do your grocery shopping and get home. But Kaz studied with Osensei, the founder of Aikido when he was a little boy. And, you know, I didn't understand that, but, you know, as soon as I heard that, and he never, I'd known Kaz for, you know, 15, 20 years before I knew that. And I only found out...

[46:18]

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