Good morning. Good morning. To start with today, we have, you know, our monthly... What is it called? Kids Talk. Yeah. You know, I've been trying to decide whether to tell you stories or to play a game. Anyway, I think I'm going to decide for you. I'm going to tell you stories. We'll do the game another time. Do you mind? Huh? You want to do the game instead? Huh? You'd rather I didn't make that decision for you? Well, the thing about this game though is, you know, there's no... If we play the game, it's not about winning. You know? But, you know, we could still play the game if you want to try it out. You want to try it out? Okay.

[01:01]

All right. We'll try the game and then, you know, you'll get the stories another time then. Because it's one or the other. Go for the game? You know, I can tell how nervous I am when I get here for my talk. You know, because I offer incense there, first of all. When I first come in, I offer incense and I have a stick of incense and I have to put it into the ash. And then, depending on how much my hand shakes, I know how nervous I am. So, today I was pretty nervous. Because my hand was shaking. And then the incense shakes. But I figure, you know, I'll just do it anyway. I'll just go and do it anyway. So, anyway. Here's the game, okay? And we'll see how it goes. And, you know, this game may or may not be fun, but we'll see, okay? We'll try it out, all right? So, here's how it goes. To start with, this is about...

[02:03]

Let me just tell you a little bit about what the game is about. And, by the way, everybody can try this. You know, you know, it works better if you can, if parts in the game stand up. But you can do this game sitting down too. It won't work quite as well, but you can also do this game sitting down. So, you can try it out with the rest of, you know, with the kids who may be standing up during parts of the game. But you can do it just, you know, in your seat, okay? So, and this game is about, you know, in Zen, in Zen we have various things. So, I won't tell you. We'll just do the game first, and then we'll talk about it. I think it's better that way. So, to start with, this game is in three parts. So, we're going to do all three parts, okay, before we talk about it. And then, if you want to talk about it, you can, okay? We might take a few minutes to talk about it. So, there's going to be three parts. Now, the first part, the first part is, we're going to see

[03:05]

how good we can be, okay? Do you know how to be really good? Huh? Huh? So, sort of, yeah. Sort of. All right. But since it's a game, you know, you have to play along, right? As though you knew how to be good, and not just sort of. But you knew what was really good. Okay? And then later on, you can do the sort of part. Okay? All right. So, to start with, we're going to practice being really good. And one way to do this is, you think about, like, when you first wake up in the morning, okay? How do you know that you're you? When do you start to feel like, oh, I'm me? You know, is it when you wash your face, when you go to the toilet, when your mother or father says good morning, when you say good morning to them, you run in to say hello to them or good morning? How do you know that you're you and you sort of feel like yourself now? Okay? Because when you first wake up, you're kind of like, oh, this time

[04:06]

I'm so sleepy, I don't feel good, right? So after a while, you feel like, oh, I'm me now. Great. Okay? So you got that feeling? You know how to be me? You, I mean. You don't know how to be me. You know how to be you, right? Okay. And then, once you're like that, how does it feel like to be really good? What do you do when you're going to be really good? How do you sit? You know, when you're good, do you like, do you sit up straight? You know? Or do you take, let's try it, okay? Let's see if you can be really good now and take some good posture. Okay? Do you know how to do good posture? You're going to have a chance to do bad posture in just a minute now, okay? So you take, see if you can have really good posture. Okay? And with this really good posture, okay, you got your really good posture now? And you'll,

[05:08]

and you're convinced now that with your really good posture, other people will realize, like, I'm being good. They'll notice. I can look at you and I say, oh, there's somebody who's being good. What a good little boy. What a good little girl. Okay, do you know how to do that so that I'll think that? Okay. And now if you have a good posture, why don't you see about standing up and see if you can stand up with some good posture. And you can take a few steps with your good posture too. See if you can be really good now. How do you walk when you're really good? What does it feel like? And then how do other people, that wasn't very good. I saw that. You're going to have fun with the next part when we get to be bad. You're going to like that a lot. But this is being really good now. How do you feel and how does everybody else look? And just take a couple steps

[06:10]

and then see what it feels like to be good while you walk around. Okay, all right. And then how does it, you just have a little sense of how do other people look when you feel like you're being good. And how do you feel? Okay, now you're going to sit down. Okay. All right, now that was being good. You know how to be good, how to have good posture, how to be proper, well-behaved. There's some of you who don't know that very well, but that's okay. Because now we're going to do, this one's usually a little more fun than being good. This is being bad. So now you get to take a really bad posture. You know, like, however you like to do, like, what's a really bad posture to take, you know. And you can make faces or, you know, stick your thumb in your ear and wave it at people or, you know. So do you know how to be bad like that? Huh? Okay.

[07:10]

You got how to do that? Let's see if you can, and now see if you can stand up. Now let's try to stand up and keep your bad posture. Okay. How do you do that? Okay. Oh, boy! Isn't that fun? Oh, boy! Oh, my goodness. This is, this got bad really fast, didn't it? This is great. All right. Okay. That seemed like it was a little more fun than being good, didn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you get to do this, too. Yeah. You can sit there and be, you know, be bad, too. I don't mind. It's just a game. Ha, ha, ha. Okay. So now you know how to be good. It seems like you know how to be good and you know a little better how to be bad, seems like. But you were pretty good at being good, too, most of you. And then you were really good at being bad, I could tell. And that was a lot of fun.

[08:13]

And now that you know how to be good and how to be bad, is there some other way that you can just be you and you're not being good and you're not being bad? Is it possible that you're like you? And what's it like to be you and not being especially good and not being, you know, particularly bad, but you're you? And then how do you sit then? And then what would you do when you stand up and it's just you standing up and it's not pretending to be good and it's not pretending to be bad, then what do you do? You want to stand up and try it? And how is it like to be like you and then look at the other people and the other kids? All right. Pretty nice. Boy, you look great now. You know, when you were being good, you were all kind of stiff and now you're all kind of moving a little bit. You're all flowing more and you all look happier. It looks like you're happy being you. This is terrific.

[09:14]

I love it. Well, thank you. All right. Now, what did you notice about that when you were good? Is there anything you noticed about when you were good or when you were bad or when you were like you? Which felt the best? It looked like being bad was kind of the most fun in some ways, but which one felt good to you? Any of you have anything? Yes, Alicia. Huh? You like being yourself. Yeah, it looked like you were happy being you. That was great. I like you being you too, you know. Yeah. I don't know your name. I forget. Huh? Yeah. What's your name? You raised your hand. I'm pointing to you. In front of Alicia, right? Yeah. What's your name? Tom? Okay. Oh, Pom. Okay. Okay.

[10:16]

Pom. Okay. Pom with a P. I like giving periogies. You like giving periogies? Huh? Yeah. I like giving noogies. Uh-huh. Yeah. And that's when you were the most happy, was doing that to him? Sort of. Sort of. Well, this is important to notice, like, when you're the most happy. You know, Buddhism is about finding out when you're the most happy. Is it when you're being good, when you're being bad, when you're being you? When you're being mean? Did you say when you're being you? I like giving periogies, but I like being you. Oh, you like doing the noogies, but you like being you. Okay. We're not sure if they're the same thing or not. Anybody else have anything? Did you notice

[11:17]

anything about this that you want to share with us? Huh? No? You're looking around behind you. No, I'm pointing to you. All right. Well, it's interesting to me, you know, mostly what I notice, if I try to be really good, I get really stiff. And then I'm trying to be really careful, and then my body gets stiff. And then it's hard to say anything. It's hard to notice much of anything because I'm so busy being good. So I feel stiff and awkward. And then when you stood up and you were good, then that's the way you looked. You were standing there and then you're kind of looking around and oh, I wonder if anybody's noticing me. And then when you were being bad, it looked like a lot of fun and you had a good time. Being misbehaving is a lot of fun, isn't it? Suzuki Roshi used to say, you know, if you want to be a good Zen teacher, teach your students to be mischievous.

[12:17]

So this is like teaching children to be, you know, this is the same thing with children, you know. I'm encouraging you to be mischievous. Your parents, you know, may not like this when you get home and say, but the Zen teacher told me to be mischievous. Because it's usually preferable to trying to be really good and making yourself stiff. And then the third one, it looked like you all looked so good and so happy when you were just being you and not worrying about being good or bad. Did you feel that way? I think most of you felt that way. All right. Can I tell you one story before you go? All right, we have time for one story. This is about, this is about a mother and her children and how she taught her children what was good manners. Okay, I think you'll like this story. All right. This mother taught her three daughters how to be, you know, on Sundays she would make a very special meal

[13:20]

and then they set the table with their best linen tablecloth and all their best crystal and their best silverware and cloth napkins and the children had to learn what was good manners. You know, you don't put your elbows on the table or you don't spit into your water and make it bubble and go blub, blub, blub, blub in your water and, you know, you wipe your hand, you wipe your face with your napkin and not with the back of your hand. You chew with your mouth closed. Do you know all those things like good manners? Do you know those things? Can you do this if you want to? So anyway, this mother asked her daughters to practice on Sunday afternoons good manners. All right. And then one Sunday she had several visitors from another college. She worked at a college and these were visiting college deans. So then she said to her daughters, now today especially, you have to practice good manners because we have visitors. Okay? So the daughters were being really careful and they were sitting up

[14:21]

straight and they were carefully wiping their mouth with their napkin and not their hands and they weren't making funny noises with their water. But then one of the little girls, she was about eight then, and she thought, her mother made this sauce that was so good. You know like gravy? It was so good and she just wanted to eat every last bit of it and she knew that you're not supposed to lick your plate. So she waited until she thought nobody's looking. And then she licked her plate and somebody noticed and the room went completely silent. There were gasps of horror. Licking your plate! And then they heard their mother say, if you're going to lick your plate like a dog then get under the table. So they did. And

[15:30]

then their room was even more gasps of horror. What are they doing? And then they heard their mother say from under the table, they heard their mother say, Oh don't worry, it's an old Danish custom. And then the little girls looked up from their plate and they saw their mother was under the table licking her plate too. So anyway, that's a little story about which is good and which is bad. And that maybe sometimes it's fun to play, you know, and sometimes it will be fun to practice being good and sometimes to be mischievous. And sometimes you get to be you. So I hope you enjoy sorting all this out now from my confusing talk.

[16:32]

I hope it's been fun for you. Thank you. You know in Buddhism we say do good, don't do bad. So which is which. Thank you. It was nice to see you. Thank you. See you later. Bye, Pom. You're welcome. I don't know if you can get the full effect of this without standing up. But you can try it sometime. You know, if you're very good and you stand up and you walk around in a room full of very good people, this is often

[17:34]

called a cocktail party. Do you know why it's, I mean, and this is part of the reason why it's so hard to be, for most of us, to be at a cocktail party. Because you have to be really good and you, then you can't reveal much about yourself and you certainly want to be careful not to notice anything too unpleasant about anybody else. So when you're really good it's like having on a really good mask. You know, a good cover. Then when you're bad, you know, this turns out to be much more fun. And everybody has a great time and it's very amusing. You know, and people when they got up, just like the kids got up and then they were laughing at each other and, you know, this is really silly and fun. This is so enjoyable to be bad on purpose. And then the third thing, now that you've been good and

[18:36]

you've done good and you've done bad, now what about being you? And then, you know, they all look beautiful when they stood up and they were just themselves. Instead of if you're good, you go and you get kind of shy because you can't reveal much when you're good. Because if you revealed very much, it might be something that wasn't so good. You know, when I come to give the talk here, I have to decide ahead of time. Okay, skip the part about being good or being bad. I'm going to have to just stomp, stomp, stomp. I'm going to have to just express myself and let that go. And then, you know, you may be thinking that's good or that's bad, but you know, I make an agreement with myself. Okay, today I just go and express myself

[19:37]

and I can be a fool. I give myself permission to sit up here in front of you and make a fool of myself. Otherwise, how could I do it? Then I'd have to be real careful about being good and being careful not to make a fool of myself. And then I might become rather quiet and soft-spoken, like the kids. And then sometimes I practice kind of being bad because it's kind of fun to sit up here and be mischievous. And then I sort of have to guess that just being myself is okay. I kind of trust that being me is okay. And not being too stiff and not being too silly. And see how it goes. And mostly in Zen, we're trying to become ourself. How to express yourself fully. This was Suzuki Roshi's teaching. One of his emphasis. Express yourself fully.

[20:39]

When you are you, Zen is Zen. I tried for a lot of years to be Suzuki Roshi. I tried for a lot of years to be a good Zen student. If you're trying to be Suzuki Roshi, then I thought that would be good to be Suzuki Roshi because I thought, I'm not that great a person. Why don't I be Suzuki Roshi instead? This is a terribly frustrating thing to try to be Suzuki Roshi. Because other people are noticing that I'm not Suzuki Roshi. Because one of the things that made Suzuki Roshi Suzuki Roshi was that he was himself. He was just himself. He wasn't trying to be good and he wasn't trying to be bad. He wasn't doing either one of those. And because he could be himself, we had a lot of permission to do that too.

[21:44]

But I didn't understand so well. And I've tried to be a good Zen student. I've tried to be a good spouse. A good father. And then it doesn't always work, does it? And then stuff spills out. The other things. And actually it's not very useful to be good in this sense. We have a saying sometimes that if you try to follow the precepts exactly, you will be breaking them. If you try to just be good, you will get really stiff. And the thing about being good like that is you tell yourself what to think. What would be the good thing to think? What would be a good thing to feel? What would be a good thing to say? What would be a good thing to do? Then if you're busy telling yourself always how to behave, how will you ever be, get to be you, then

[22:45]

you won't. This is not really liberation. Liberation is to be free from that kind of bind. So we have that saying in Zen, don't put another head over your head. The one that tells you what to do, what to think, how you should feel. But this is very easy to do. If you start to practice meditation, it's very easy. When you sit down to meditate, do you tell yourself, mostly we tell ourselves, now I'm going to meditate and that means I'm going to quiet my mind. And then we say to our mind, will you please be quiet now? Sometimes we don't even say please. Will you be quiet and

[23:47]

will you be clear and luminous? Will you be buoyant? Will you not have any difficulty that's too much for me to experience? I want certain experiences and not others. Thank you very much. I want the nice ones today. I want the Buddhist ones. And usually then we have some idea which are the Buddhist way, what is meditation and what isn't. No matter how much I tell people, when the bell rings, from the time the bell rings to start the period to when the bell rings to end the period, that's meditation. No matter how much I tell people that, they say, no, no, no, no. Meditation is when these things happen and not when these other things like fear or grief or sorrow or pain. That's not meditation. Meditation is when I'm completely clear and one with everything. So all the time people say, I can't meditate. What they mean is

[24:49]

they can't do their idea of what meditation is. And they'd rather keep their idea of what meditation is than actually sit and meditate and change their idea. Do you understand? So sometimes we call this, we say, all of us are at the top of a hundred foot pole. And we've spent a long time getting there. How will you get off now? Can you leap free of your pole? What keeps us at the top of a hundred foot pole? Which is kind of, you know, precarious. A precarious place to be. Being good is precarious. Being bad is not quite as precarious, but fairly precarious. What keeps us at the top of our hundred foot pole is our beliefs. What in Buddhism is called views. What kind of person are you? What kind of person am I?

[25:51]

What's the world like? Can you trust other people? Do you have some understanding of, you know, I'm a deluded sentient being. I know. How do you know? We actually say, each one of us is ordinary mind and Buddha. So of course you're a deluded sentient being, but you're also Buddha. But we stay at the top of our pole because of our views. You know, so if you think, nobody likes me, it's easy enough to never encounter any evidence to the contrary. To behave in such a way that people won't like you. And if somehow somebody does like you, you decide, oh, they're just pretending to like me, or they like everybody.

[26:53]

It's not really a test, this person. Or if they knew me better, they wouldn't like me. You have some way, we have some way, you know, to maintain our view. And can we trust other people? Can we trust the world? So to practice meditation, you know, we're trying to go outside of what is good, what is bad. We say this all the time about meditation, don't think good, don't think bad. Don't administer pros and cons. Don't assess right and wrong. Because while we're busy doing that, that has to do with our strategy of what to do to maintain our views. To keep us at the top of our pole. And somehow, you know, we long to leap free. And part of leaping free is then to let go of our views. In other words, part of leaping free,

[27:55]

there are many ways to think about this, so I will offer you some today. First of all, you know that when we try to be good, and we did good and bad, and then what about being you? And that's what we call in Zen, ordinary mind, or everyday mind. Everyday mind is the way. Not being good or bad, but everyday mind is the way. And is it possible that, you know, and we're trying, we're studying and practicing, how can we trust everyday mind and being me? To go out in the world and meet people, and express ourself, you know, without thinking good or bad, without thinking right or wrong, just being me. But sometimes it will help, you know, to notice, you know, it's useful to notice, what do you do that keeps you from doing that? What do you do that keeps you on the hundred foot pole? You know, this is like saying,

[28:58]

you know, to try to identify what you do that cuts you off from the connection you really want. Can you identify what you do that cuts you off from the connection you really want? Because to be off of that pole is to be connected with everything. Being on the pole is to be separate from everything. And we have this way to keep ourself exactly as separate as we think, you know, we should be from others and from the connection we really want. You know, because we have issues about, you know, the risk involved, you know, whether I'm worth it or not. Do I deserve this connection? You know, it's too scary to be that connected. You know, too much issues of abandonment or betrayal or, you know, pain come up. So there's a lot, you know, that we can notice. To try

[29:59]

to identify what we do that keeps us from everyday mind. You know, what mind do we shift into? How do we do it? Because if you notice yourself doing it, it means you can stop doing it. Otherwise, you just say, oh, it just happened to me. I'm not, it's not my fault. I didn't do that, other people did that to me. But if you watch closely, you can notice what you do to disconnect or what you do to avoid, you know, that stops you from connecting. Having the connection you really want. And so this is also, you know, related to, you know, the fact that whether it's in meditation or in your life. But I think, you know, I find especially in meditation, but in other times as well, you know, touching what you've least wanted to touch is where the most benefit is.

[30:59]

Okay? Doesn't that make sense? You know, touching your fear or your grief or your sorrow, touching what you haven't wanted to touch, that's where the most benefit is. Because otherwise you'll try to be good, you know, so that you don't have to touch that. Or you'll try to be bad so you don't have to touch that. These are strategies to avoid connection and to avoid touching what you haven't wanted to touch. And meditation pretty much inevitably brings people to touching what they haven't wanted to touch. And at that point, you know, you either decide I'm going to continue meditating and I'm going to touch what I haven't been willing to touch or I'm out of here. Meditation doesn't work for me. I'm not getting the nice experience that I've read about in all the books. Thank you anyway.

[32:05]

So this is pretty interesting. And you know, it sounds like if you leap off the pole, this is a risk and it is a risk. And part of the risk is that you take responsibility. We start taking responsibility for our life and part of this is being present. This also means to be present. And this is also then to shift from blaming others to taking responsibility for yourself. And the simple example I like for that is, you make me mad. That's blaming somebody for how you feel. Which is different than Buddhist logic and Buddhist understanding is when you said that, I got angry. I got angry. I did that. You said something, I got angry. Didn't say you made me angry. Nobody makes anybody anything.

[33:10]

Now you're responsible for you know, your feeling. We say in Zen, you know, all activity is self-made and self-realized. This is a big thing to swallow. And the other thing that's risky about this, you know, is that when you decide this, you know, part of deciding this is that people can see you. You're going to be revealing yourself. Right? If you're good and you just do what you should, then what does it cost you? It doesn't cost you anything. You haven't revealed anything. You just did what you should. Then people say, well, that was nice. Thank you. And if it didn't work out, you say, well, I was doing what I should. I did what I was told. I was doing good manners. And if you do bad manners

[34:15]

like that mother with her kids, that in a certain way, you know, I tell that story to people and they say, no, that was good manners. Because really good manners is where you make everybody in the situation feel good. The kids felt good, the mother felt good, and the guests felt good because she said, don't worry, it's an old Danish custom. And then they all had a laugh when she got under the table too. And then they went back to, you know, trying to have good manners. And if she was just practicing good manners, you know, she would then get angry at her kids and so forth, you know, and try to make them be good. And then they don't, you know, know anything about, you know, then, you know, mother ends up hiding behind good manners. So to do what's good or to do what's bad, you know, we actually are hiding. We're not revealing ourselves. So, you know, part of our practice,

[35:16]

and traditionally in Zen, and why we emphasize sometimes teacher-student relationship is when you meet with your teacher, you will be seen. And it's scary to be seen. And it's scary to see somebody else and actually meet somebody else. Don't you think so? So, you know, this kind of practice to actually meet someone or to meet yourself by revealing yourself to somebody else, you reveal yourself to yourself. And this is true also in relationships. So there's some courage here, you know, to go ahead and meet someone you haven't met, to see someone, to see yourself, you know, to see yourself in the eyes of another. And this is, again, you know, to leap off the flagpole. When you do this, you've leaped. You know, you meet someone for the first time,

[36:16]

like meeting someone for the first time, again. And there are some, there are a couple of other factors I want to mention before I finish today. You know, what helps us in this kind of endeavor, you know, one of the things that helps us is joy or enjoyment, you know, to study, you know, how to have joy in your life. Because to have joy is beyond already good and bad. You know, this is, so the path of joy is a path which takes you right away, you know, off the flagpole. Can you enjoy your breath? Do you enjoy walking? Do you enjoy sitting? Enjoy eating? And that kind of joy,

[37:19]

you know, means, because that kind of joy, joy has to do with connecting. You have to connect in order to enjoy. So when you connect with something and you receive it, where you resonate with the object of your awareness, whether it's a food or, you know, you're walking, you're breathing, you know, another person, when you resonate, you let yourself resonate. We say also, you know, to let the experience come home to your heart. This is joy. And it's also compassion. And then, you know, to have some ease. If you're busy being good and doing it right, you won't have any ease. You'd be so stiff. You know, this is what happens to us. I don't know anybody who can do right, you know, without being stiff. I mean, I can sit here and be really stiff and right. And then that's different even than

[38:22]

being, you know, straight and not worrying about being right. You see, I can relax. And then I'm not busy being right. So busy being right or wrong, you know, is a strategy to not get any new information and to go on believing what you've always believed. So some joy will free you. And also some ease. You know, is it possible to sit, to meditate with some feeling of ease? And ease is like making yourself at home. Can you be at home in your body? Can you be at home on the earth walking? You know, are you at home there? And can you, if you're not at home in your body, I think this is, you know, as good a reason to practice Buddhism as any, is to be at home in your body and mind, to welcome yourself home, to welcome your experience home. Anyway, to have some ease is like being at home, even though you

[39:23]

start out feeling like, oh, this doesn't feel like home. But can you make yourself at home there? So in that sense, practice is more about, rather than trying to get back to home, it's finding out how to be at home in the strange realm that you find yourself in the next moment. If you always try to stay home, now you have lots of barriers and you won't be able to connect with much of anything. So when you meet something and you let down the barriers and you meet something, how can you be at home in this new territory, in this new place? And find out. And ease, the other thing about ease is, you know, ease is what classically in Buddhism is the sense of being, you know, one with things. The things, the physical sensations and our thoughts and things connect. They're like one. And we have a feeling of ease.

[40:27]

So these are some clues, you know. It's actually very, you know, that we can use, you know, is there enjoyment? Is there some ease? Can I allow some ease? Can I allow some enjoyment? Sometimes it's just a matter of giving yourself permission. I decided many years ago, you know, to practice smiling even before Thich Nhat Hanh. I just made it up. And then I thought, you know, oh, this smiling, you know, sometimes, oh, that smiling, it's so trivial. And then, but I thought, no, this smiling is a very serious business. Oh, one other thing, you know,

[41:38]

before I forget, but, you know, to practice forms is a way to leap off the pole because the form is not something you create that you make up. So, you know, every so often I have conversations with people who are at Zen Center here or at Tassajar and, you know, they say, oh, you know, Zen Center feels so intimidating. It's so formal. There's all those people in those black robes and they have all these forms and things. And don't you think that's difficult for people and, you know, shouldn't we be able to have some practice where we're just comfortable? And, you know, I've done Zen and I've done Vipassana and I like Vipassana, you know, because after Zen Center it's really nice, you know, that you have so much permission to, if you don't, you can sit on the cushion or sit in the chair if you don't want to sit in the chair or the cushion.

[42:39]

If you don't like the meditation, I'll go sit in the plush lounge chairs in the library, you know, or, you know, if you don't like that either, we'll give you a little room off by yourself and you can have whatever kind of chair you like. So you have all this wonderful space and so in a certain way, you know, that's wonderful. And, you know, the other side of it is, when you come to Zen Center, you have to leave yourself behind. Because if you sit like in a row and you sit the way everybody is sitting, you know, it's not like Vipassana where you bring in your blankie and your water bottle and, you know, you kind of get your territory set up and you get your stuff here and here and you kind of get your little barriers between you and the other person and you've got your own little space there and then, you know, so, you know, it's very territorial and everybody gets their little piece of territory and you kind of set it up the way you want to and here you don't get to do that. That's intimidating. Damn right it's intimidating.

[43:40]

That's what I told you. Get off of that pole, it's scary. So if you can be intimidated, you should be intimidated and you should, you know, practice someplace else. Because if you can be intimidated, you're not ready to meet you know, what you would meet if you entered that form. If the form puts you off, it's just, you know, it's your mind, you know, it's your thinking. It's your thinking. You know very well, actually secretly, that if you did that form, you would meet something that would be bad news probably and it wouldn't be the you you're used to, etc. You would enter another dimension, you know. You might even touch something that you hadn't been willing to ever touch before in your life. You know, the kind of thing that it might actually, you know, be of some real benefit but it also would mean you'd have to let go of some view, like

[44:42]

you know, men can't be trusted, or women are deceitful, or the world this, or I'm shy, or you know, I don't deserve, I'm not good enough, I'm good enough, I'm, you know, I'm right, I'm wrong. You might have to let go of some view you have in order to just enter the form. So, form is also a good way, you know, but lacking some form, I'm encouraging enjoyment, ease, taking responsibility for your life. Noticing, identifying what you do that keeps you from connecting the connection you really want. You know, I just found out yesterday that today, this afternoon, there's an ordination ceremony, so I think there's 14 people, so I'm very happy for you, those of you who are doing the ceremony.

[45:43]

You know, this is a very, it's a very positive step for somebody to take. To take lay ordination, to sow a rock, to receive a Buddhist name. It's a way that, you know, you reveal yourself. You know, that you take vows in front of other people is revealing something about yourself. Last weekend there was a conference on Suzuki Roshi, and one of the stories that somebody told was that when he was waffling about whether or not to have lay ordination, he went to Suzuki Roshi and he said, I'm not sure I believe all these things on all these precepts, and I actually do all these things that I say I'm going to do, you know, not to lie, not to steal, not to kill. I'm not sure I can do that, so maybe I shouldn't be doing this. So he went down his whole litany of doubts, and finally

[46:44]

Suzuki Roshi said, why don't you go ahead and do the ceremony, and if at any time later you decide it was a mistake, you can blame me. So in this case, you know, you'll have to blame somebody else, because I'm not really involved in this ordination. You'll find somebody. Sometimes, of course, you know, well, anyway, sometimes, of course, doing a ceremony and wearing a raksu or wearing a robe, you know, on one hand you're revealing something about yourself, and on the other hand it's possible to hide. I'm a Buddhist priest. Did you know that?

[47:49]

But I try not to do too much of that. Isn't it fun? All right. Well, I've kept you long enough, I think. I'm going to let you go now. So, thank you for being here today, and thank you for your sincere way-seeking effort. Our intention equally. Which you can't do. So the point of the exercise isn't that you actually succeed at it. The point of the exercise is that you have this practice, and then you notice what you do do.

[48:53]

And so what he said was, the way that your circle is lopsided, that's something inherently you. That's how you know yourself, the way in which your circle is off. So the way in which your posture is off, that's something about, oh, that's how I do it. So you notice something more about how you do it when you have a form which isn't the way you do it. So congratulations, you got that. Yes? He found out how unreal it is to get a Ph.D.

[50:10]

And he's the same person. And what does it show? So I just thought, the whole thing, I thought it would be nice to just kind of, to help. So now he's going to try being bad more on purpose, rather than just end up feeling bad in the effort to be good. And then the good ends up not having any real reward to it. You were going to be good and get the Ph.D. and go through all the things, and then that was supposed to be of some benefit to you. And now he was realizing,

[51:11]

what a sham that was. I went through this whole thing of being good and doing all the things I'm supposed to, now I've got a Ph.D. and it doesn't mean anything, it doesn't prove anything, it doesn't indicate really, it's just a performance. And actually, so now I'm encouraging him to just get on with his life. Anyway, I'm not a big fan of public schooling, but if you have a Ph.D., basically you can set it aside and then do what you want, but then if it turns out it's useful and somebody says, well you have to have a Ph.D. to do this job, and you say, well you want to see the paper? I mean, I can show it to you. It doesn't mean much to me, but if it means something to you, well here it is. I think a lot of public education, I mean, there are exceptions obviously, and there's more to it than this, but for the sake of nice simple things that are easy to say, public school basically certifies

[52:13]

that you'll put up with an inherently boring situation, be moderately productive, and not sabotage the system. And congratulations, we'll give you a job where you can do that. But once in a while, it's a little different, especially if you get a Ph.D., then you get to make up your own thing. You know, like if you're a doctor, then you get to practice any medicine, even acupuncture. So now you'll get to do, you'll have lots of permission now because you're you and you've got a Ph.D. So now you get to make up all kinds of things to do, and they say, well it must be okay, he's got a Ph.D. Anyway, what else? Noogies.

[53:32]

I'm not sure what a noogie is. Well, there are, of course, various strategies. You know, this is the Zen Master's job, but it's also each of our jobs. You know, what is a good, what is a good approach? So, you know, it's something to study over time. And, you know, one of the, so one of the first things traditionally in Zen, you know, one is encouraged to try to see virtue in the person.

[54:33]

Or you try to see their true nature, even though they don't, and they're caught up in their, you know, afflictive nature. They're being afflicted, and they're afflicting others. So you want to try to see how you can respect them, or you know, something more deeper than that, you know, which you can draw out of them. This is one kind of approach. You know, or another kind of way to understand it would be, is there some way for you to be like a companion or a friend to them in some real way? And, you know, we all have limited capacities. You know, so any one of us, we may not be up for the challenge of any particular other person. So at some point we just lock them up and to heck with it. We can't deal with it. You know, and we will punish people, and we will do various things. But to have any real change, it's about you know, how can you be

[55:37]

a friend to someone? Because if you try to just tell someone that was bad, that's wrong, you know, you shouldn't do that. You know, then you're just another enemy. You're not like someone who's actually necessarily, they may not experience that as you're trying to make them happy, or you're trying to help them be happy. But anyway, this is obviously a very complicated thing. So, as much as anything, it would be useful to realize there's not any particular way to do that, but that's exactly our study. Whether it's you who are caught up in your afflictive emotions or somebody else. You know, Buddhism says that it's useful to be mindful, and mindfulness is the basic liberating characteristic to be aware without judgment.

[56:37]

So, if you're angry or someone else is angry, the more you can, you know, you don't try to tell someone don't be angry when they're angry, because that's inherently a kind of judgment of, you're wrong to be angry. So, if you tell somebody when they're angry, you're wrong. Don't be angry. Then, you know, you've just made them wrong, and that's not much of an encouragement for them, and they're likely to get mad at you for making them wrong. But, mindfulness, the characteristic of mindfulness is, gee, it's sort of like active listening. Gee, it seems like you're really angry. I don't know what to do now. I wish I could help you. So, you try to come up with, you know, you feel out what to do, and it may work and it may not. I don't have any answer. But, if you decide with any particular person or yourself, you know, then you're taking that on, and you're trying out, and you're seeing if you can find, you know, and if you have a

[57:41]

long-term relationship with somebody, then, you know, you have more commitment there to stay with the situation and see if you can find something, and maybe it takes three months or six months or two years, you know, once something begins to emerge. So, you keep studying and finding out how to do it, and in the meantime you stay. If you don't have that kind of commitment, then, you know, at some point you just leave. You say, well, you figure it out. I'm not going to know what to do. I'm going. What do you think? Yeah. So, that's a possibility. Well, seeing if you can notice, you know,

[58:51]

to appreciate some virtue in the person. You know, Suzuki Roshi used to say over and over again, you know, somebody who is bad is not always bad. They may be very devoted to their mother, or, you know, if they have a child, they may love their child. In some other context, they're bad. Yeah. How does that help them? Because one of the reasons they're, you know, bad is because that it's like one of the reasons any of us is bad is because nobody has seen us. And when somebody, so if somebody sees your virtue, you know, then you feel like you could be present and you could be alive. You know, it's like you know, what happens is that

[59:52]

any one of us, you know, what I was saying today is that any one of us will get over time a particular view of who I am, what the world is like. So, somebody who is bad, you know, decides, I am bad. I'm bad. People don't want me around. You know, people don't like me. People don't respect me. So, the action is an expression of all the decisions and beliefs they have. So, if you can behave strongly enough in a way that doesn't fit that, you know, it has the potential to liberate them. It doesn't mean you'll always be successful. We're just, as I say, you know, any one of us, we're trying to find our way. And we're trying to help others find their way. . [...]

[60:56]

It was one of the, . [...] Anyway, it's just, it's very powerful, really. I mean, and certainly in my experience, it's very powerful. The times in my life, I feel seen and appreciated and known and respected. And it's like, oh, really? Because it's not the way I thought about myself. . [...] And still be a good Buddhist? . . . I think we've answered that one. . [...] You know, the main thing is to notice

[61:56]

what you do. . . . And that you decide to do it, you realize you decide to do it, rather than you do it unconsciously. Suffering comes from doing any of those things unconsciously and not realizing that you're doing them, and then saying, well, why, why don't you appreciate what I'm doing? Or, you know, why don't you respect me, or why doesn't this work? But we do things without knowing it. And then there's some, and then we have a problem. I don't know that I'm explaining that well enough, but it's the unconscious things we do, the things we do unconsciously, which end up being painful and difficult and causing suffering. So when you just, if you know you're manipulating or doing something, and you're aware of it, and you do it, then it's a whole different thing than if it's something you're not even aware of. All of these things can be called

[62:57]

one thing or another, you know? And partly, it's more manipulative when you do it unconsciously. When you do it, when you do something consciously, it's like play. You know, there was a fellow a few years ago who lived in Belinus who wrote a book on being a salesman. I forget his name now. It's a great little mimeograph sort of book. And the book is called You're Gonna Love It. But he says in there, you know, a lot of people, I meet them at parties and they say, well, what are you doing? I say, I'm a salesman. And then that's the last I see of them. He said, but you know, everybody's a salesman in their own way. Do you think that people come into doctors' offices and say, I want a gallbladder operation. I want it taken out. No. No, the doctor tells them something and sells them on the idea

[63:57]

that having a gallbladder operation will make them better. And we're all the time in a certain sense selling ourselves. Aren't I doing a good sale today of being a Zen teacher? Is that manipulation? Is that selling? What is it? It's not real obvious always, but I try to be aware of what I'm doing. And mostly, if I'm going to be up here, I have to give myself permission to make a fool. Did I tell you that in the lecture? I have to give myself permission to be a fool. And I also invite you in. So I spend a lot of the time going around being me. And then, when I'm going to do this talk, I say, why don't you be me and I'll be you and we're all going to be together.

[64:58]

It's all going to be one. And we'll see what happens, won't we? And so then I say, welcome everybody. I'm not going to keep you out anymore. You're welcome to be right in here with me. And now we'll see what happens. So then I invite all of you in. And then, because otherwise, how will I know what to talk about? And if I'm trying to keep you out and keep myself here and remember all of that, it's like that gets confusing. Then it's hard to know what to say and what to do. So I invite you all in and then I let you help me come up with what to say. ... [...]

[66:01]

Oh, you'll stay home and come. Yeah. ... ... ... Yeah. That's that other little home. ... ... Yeah, that's what we think. Exactly. In the context of the lecture today, what we think, our beliefs are where home is. ... So there's the home you have trouble leaving, that's the one to leave. ... But to make yourself at home anywhere or wherever, where you are, to be at home where you are, then that's like, yeah. ... [...]

[67:04]

... [...] What else today? Yes. ... [...]

[68:12]

... [...] Well, homeless is not something that I've taken on particularly either. And it may be that you're in the situation there and it's obviously even more up for you than it is for me. I go, I do what I do. And I made a decision at some point in my life, I'm not going to try to solve all the problems of the world. I'm going to live the life that I live and maybe it'll be a help to people in the way that it's a help to people, but I can't be a help to people in every way that's possible

[69:16]

for somebody to be a help. Anyway, I thought, rather than trying to live the life, the perfect life or the right kind of life, I better live my life, you know, rather than thinking about, oh, the best thing to do would be to go out and help homeless people or the best thing to do would be to go work for Sierra Club or, you know. So I decided, no, what am I drawn to do? I'm drawn to being, to practicing meditation and, you know, helping people in that way. And maybe it's a help to them and maybe it's not, you know. But I thought that's what I would do. Your talking about it, you know, does remind me of a couple of people that I know who have done various things with the homeless people. One is Tony Patchell, who, you know, I was at Tassajara with back in the early 70s and he's now a street therapist in San Francisco.

[70:17]

So he's hired by the city of San Francisco and he goes out every day on the streets of San Francisco and works with homeless people. When he goes home at night, he never tells those people his home address or phone number, which is to say, if you're going to, most people, if you're going to do that kind of work, you also need, you know, some refuge from that kind of work, you know. You need, so that is a consideration, what you're saying, you know. You also want to be able to separate yourself from it, not just blend with it, but also separate yourself from it. So, anyway, that seems important. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, that may be. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a possibility. You just decide, I'm not up for it.

[71:19]

But, you know, I really try to go by, rather than, you know, what do I want to do, what's in my heart to do, rather than what's the right thing to do, what's the Buddhist thing to do. Because then, you know, I don't see any point in coercing yourself with Buddhist things to do, any more than coercing yourself with non-Buddhist things to do. The other thing that struck me recently is I was listening to a tape of Peter Matheson. You know, he was one of the speakers in the Zen Center's Millennium Series, you know, the series of monthly lectures at the Interim Church in San Francisco. He gave a very powerful talk, you know, which started out about, in New York, a whole group of people who studied with Tetsugan Roshi decided that he wanted them to do a street sasheen. So the first part of his talk was about how they did a street sasheen. And, you know, they would go and live on the streets for a week for their sasheen, rather than coming to the Zen Dojo at Greenfields for their sasheen. And he said the homeless people spot them right away.

[72:25]

You know, people who aren't homeless can't tell the difference between the real homeless and the people who are just slumming it, you know, on the streets for a week. For one thing, you know, is their hands. It takes months to get your hands where they can't, you know, be cleaned any more. If you're really homeless, then apparently you have, you know, you have dirt that can't, you know, you can't get it out of your hands. You can't wash your hands enough to remove the dirt. So the homeless people, they go like, geez, you're not homeless. But anyway, what Peter said was, you know, the thing, the main thing that you can do, and again, this is like a Buddhist thing, but he says the main, the important thing to do is, you know, can you actually see somebody? Can you actually let somebody into your eyes, into your being, and actually just see them? Because part of what is homeless is the fact that nobody sees them. That's how they got homeless, is that they're not seen.

[73:27]

So that in itself is very powerful, regardless of whether you're going to do something or not, is to see. And if you look, and you look somebody in the eye, and you're actually willing to look them in the eye, and see somebody, then that's, you know, that's more than, you know, he said that's a big gift. This is similar to, you know, this other question here, what do we do for one another? You know, we want to do, we want to do a lot of things that, you know, that finally, you know, most of the things we think of to do is like, you know, can I do something besides that? It's so hard to look somebody, it's so hard to look somebody in the eye, you know. Come on, can't we do something besides that where I don't really have to, like, see them? So anyway, that was Peter's advice. So, you know, since I'm not working in a situation, I don't know what to advise you, you know, but, you know, mostly I just say, over and over again, we're all stumbling along, we all keep trying to find our way.

[74:32]

And, you know, there's not some Buddhist way. People keep thinking there's some Buddhist way, and people have all these, you know, mistaken ideas about the Buddhist way, like if I could just follow the Buddhist way, I wouldn't have the problems that I have now. Because I'd be doing it the Buddhist way, and that wouldn't work. But actually the Buddhist way is to be willing to have the problems that you have, and to start to notice why you have them, and what you do, you know. Huh? Yeah, what you do to, you know, that it ends up like that. I don't know. Anyway, so I like Suzuki Roshi's advice, you know, practicing Zen Buddhism is to feel your way along in the dark. And I'm as much in the dark as any of you about any of this stuff. And I'm feeling my way along, and, you know, I'm actually happier and happier about the fact that I haven't gotten anywhere. You know, with all these years of practice.

[75:35]

Because, you know, if I had gotten somewhere, then I could be proud of myself. And then I could think, and then I could think, what idiots you are, you haven't gotten anywhere yet? And, and then you could all be aspiring to get somewhere, like he seems to have gotten somewhere. And that would certainly take you off your path, you know, which would, you know, what I think of as this true path of feeling your way along in the dark. You know, and you could think, why, why can't I know what, just what to do? Like Ed seems to, you know. But since I haven't gotten anywhere, you don't have that problem probably of looking at me. And, you know, like he seems to know what to do. No, he doesn't. And, you know, and I finally decided, like, that should be an encouragement to you all. I mean, I don't know how you'd take it. But at first, you know, people go like, well, why would I listen to a Zen teacher who doesn't know what to do? Well, that gives you permission not to know what to do too.

[76:42]

Yes. I figure that is to save all sentient beings. You know, leaving them in the dark. You know, because that, the alternative is to start telling them all what to do. So that they could be liberated. And this way, I don't have to do that, you know. I can just let them be sentient beings feeling their way along in the dark, and then they're free. They're not bound up in, you know, you should this, you should that. Why don't you practice Buddhism? Why don't you get enlightened? Why don't you know what to do? What's wrong with you? No, I don't have to do any of that, you know. So, I give you, I give people a big permission to feel their way along in the dark. And then, you know, that seems to me like liberation. See, I've liberated them. I mean, they may still, you know, be coercing themselves.

[77:49]

I've thought of that. What else do we have to talk about today? Something? Yes. Yes. Yeah, good for you. Congratulations, that's exactly right. So, in that sense, the way off the pole is usually less effort, more off the pole. Very good, thank you. Well, if you're busy making effort, it's going to be associated with, you know, a particular aim and goal and agenda. So, when you're making that kind of effort, then you're more involved with, you know, telling yourself what to do and making the effort to do that.

[79:01]

So, how can you be just finding your way or feeling, you know, getting information or feeling your way along? You'll be so busy doing that effort, you can't actually be connecting with the people and things around you and your own thoughts and feelings and, you know, where you're actually at. You can't connect with it because you're too busy making effort. So, in the long run, you know, we're somehow interested in, you know, more effortless effort. And there's actually a kind of effort associated with effortlessness. You know, it actually, you have to focus, you have to concentrate. There's an effort to be, you know, to be an effortless. It's not just, you know, there's some difference between, you know, there's a range between from effort, you know, at the other end from effort is go limp. So, you know, in a certain sense, you know, ease is somewhere between effort and limp. So, today I was talking about in the lecture about ease. So, ease is like, you know, where is the effortless effort? You know, because if you just make effort, you'll get stiff.

[80:05]

And if you just go limp, you're on the floor. So, where is it between you? And you can find it in your body. You know, where your body, where you have some ease. As opposed to, I'm going to really try hard. And then you're muscling up to make effort. And muscling up, you lose your connection, you know, with your feelings and sensations and with other people and things. So, you know, you've figured out as much as you have. So, now you know, you know, the next place to go. Very good. Yes. I'm sorry, my eyes don't, you know, go the right direction. It's my right one. You need to concentrate on. Okay.

[81:20]

Well, obviously, I don't know the situation. Good or bad. Right? But if you have a particular understanding, you know, the best way, as I understand it, to express yourself fully is to let other people have their understanding. So, the more you can give her permission not to agree with you, the easier it is for you to say what you have to say. As long as you don't have to convince her, this is what I think. You know, have you considered this view? What do you think about it this way? I see this happening. I've noticed that happening. And, you know, this is how I see it. It doesn't make sense to me, you know. I don't understand why you don't. And you offer what you have to offer, but the less that you insist that they have to agree with you, the easier it is to do, generally. So, usually what stops us is if we want to be right about our view, and so then we, you know, we want to have to convince them, and then it's going to be hard, because we realize that they may not agree with us.

[83:21]

And so, when it's clear, it's the way you see things and the way you experience things, and you're not trying to tell her she's wrong if she sees it some other way. You see, that's the implicitly what will stop you, I think, you know, generally, is if, you know, you're telling her is making her wrong for seeing it the way she sees it. So, the more you can say, now you may be, you know, the way you see it may be, you know, perfectly fine, and, you know, because it might be. You know, we don't know this, I don't know this person, now you've known her a long time. But anyway, that's the way that I feel about it. I think it's easier to say things when the other person doesn't have to agree, when you give them a big space to own their own life and their own experience, and from outside you see it some way. And when you're careful to not, you know, to make it you, you know, to make it what you see, what you think, what you feel, what you wish for her, and not, you know, how she should understand it, what she should do, you know, how she should be, that will be, you know, more of a problem.

[84:39]

So, I think if you're careful about your language, you know, you can find something to say, offer something in the situation. And when you really believe, like, oh, well, you know, it's her life and it's her choices, you know, and it's up to her. We don't know exactly, you know, I think on television the other night, and I've encountered other situations, but, you know, sometimes women, you know, who have cancer, you know, are also expecting a baby. And then oftentimes the doctors say, you know, well, if you have an abortion, you know, you'll have more strength, you know, to deal with the cancer. But, you know, what do they know? Because oftentimes having a baby is what gives somebody a lot of, you know, love and energy, you know, for fighting the cancer. But this is obviously a very complicated situation because, you know, on one hand she's complaining about it and, you know, despairing about it, but she wants to go back to it.

[85:47]

And so it's never real obvious, you know, what is, what's what in those kind of situations. I'm sort of reminded, you know, of kids who will go back to their parents, even though I saw somebody last week who works in an emergency room in Santa Barbara or San Luis Obispo, and they see the same kid 15 times. And the kid wants to go back to the parents, who beat them up and keeps them in the emergency room. So, you know, and that's, you know, so that may be, that's partly because it's, there is a kind of bond there. And psychologically, you know, apparently psychologically those kind of bonds can be very strong, very intense, because it's what's known as, you know, haphazard reward. You don't get any obvious regular reward for anything in particular, but you get enough haphazard reward, that's very binding, apparently, you know, psychologically.

[86:55]

But anyway, whatever it is, you know, it's also the sort of sense of, well, it's what somebody knows. So you go back to what you know rather than into an area that you don't know. And it's always hard for any of us to go into the areas we don't know. But again, that's, you know, basics and advice. Don't, you know, be willing to be in situations where you don't know. But then you can't force people into those situations. And, you know, they have to see some way for themselves, like, yeah, this is good for me not to know. And I'm willing not to know and I'll feel my way along in the dark. And I'll find my way. And then, you know, but other times it's just too much for people. It's too scary and they don't have enough, you know, resources or strength or stability or, you know, courage or whatever it is. You know, or, you know, willingness to be helpless, whatever it is that, you know, allows them to not know and to find a new life for themselves. So it's not a simple matter, obviously. Good luck. Have we got to about the end of this?

[88:04]

One more question. Is there one more question? Yeah. Yeah. My eyes must be getting much worse. Okay. Yeah.

[89:19]

Tell them to get used to it. Uh-huh. Yeah. If you change, that's true, if you change, if you change the people around you will have to change too. And so, you know, if the people around you aren't ready to change also, then they will have various ways to try to get you to go back to being the person that they were used to dealing with. Yeah. So you will encounter that inevitably. Sorry. And, you know, you keep deciding anyway that you'll go for it, you know, anyway. And, you know, eventually, you know, things, over time things shift. You know, the people who are around you shift. You know, if you, you know, because there's no alternative, either they shift or at some point, you know, you go a different direction. But yes, that's exactly what happens. When you become more autonomous and you are, you know, feeling your way along and finding your way and, you know,

[90:24]

not just doing like what they want you to or how am I going to please him or, you know, how do I get her to love me or, you know, when you stop doing those things, you know, that's a shift for people. And it's an energetic shift and, you know, people notice those things. So, yeah, that's part of what happens. Eventually, over time, you know, more, you know, things do shift and change. Something happens. So anyway, I encourage you, keep at it. Well, oh, I have some flyers here for different things, if you're interested in. It turns out that in another week, now, you know, this is not, this is, I'm doing a workshop at Tassajara starting June the 14th, that's a week from today. It's on Zen and it's called Awakening Choice, Realizing the Body's Wisdom. It's a workshop on Zen and something called Integrated Awareness, which is a body,

[91:28]

a different kind of body awareness practice and associated with therapeutic touch or what I consider now, since I'm a Buddhist priest, you know, I consider it Mindfulness Touch. So Mindfulness Touch is MT, you know, so it's my new, my version of Integrated Awareness. I can't teach Integrated Awareness because I'm not an authorized Integrated Awareness teacher, right? So I teach MT. But anyway, we have this workshop at Tassajara. Marilyn and I, Marilyn's actually teaching mostly the Integrated Awareness part and I'm doing the Zen part. And if any of you happen to be interested, it's five days at Tassajara and it costs, you know, you need to have five days off and you need to have some money. And, you know, you see me, leisure, money, you know, interest and you can do this. I have just a few copies of Life and Hell and a little poem. This is a little cartoon about saying you love me is proof you hate me.

[92:31]

And so forth. And then just in case any of you are interested, I have here the official schedule for Ed Brown Saturday sittings here at Green Gorge. I do eight of these a year from 9 to 5 and we just did one yesterday. So there's four more this year. So the dates are on this piece of paper, you know, if you're interested in coming and being here from 9 to 5 on some Saturday. And this is something that somebody gave me, so if anybody else wants to give me something, you know, I have the pile here for that too. Anyway, thank you very much. Bon appétit. Or bon voyage as the case might be.

[93:17]

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