I'm your substitute lecturer today, so I want you all to behave. You think that was just a sort of joke to start, but this actually relates to the subject of my talk, you'll see. Somehow today before my talk I was thinking about, since I'm the substitute, I was thinking that some of the things that people have said about my talks. So, one person told me they'd heard a conversation where somebody said, well, how are Ed's talks? And the person said, well, the first one is pretty good. So if you're here for the first time, I'm very good.

[01:08]

Somebody else recently told me, well, I had two remarks. I've just been down at Tassajara the last week or so. I do each year a workshop on Zen and cooking, or cooking as spiritual practice, and I gave some talks. So one person said, they didn't tell me this until just recently, no, they said they waited because they said, when I first heard your talks, I really didn't like them much, but now I'm actually feeling they're okay. I'm liking them better. So I waited a day. I was sort of nervous at first to ask him why, and then I asked. Anyway, and then, but you never know when you give a talk, you know, what will people think or, and we don't really know the effect of a talk anyway. You know, it's all, there's a level on which we respond intellectually or, you know, we

[02:17]

think, oh, that was a good talk or that wasn't, and then there's another level where it's all kind of imperceptible, you know, whether it affects us or what the real effect is. We don't know exactly. It's rather mysterious. But someone else said about my talks, oh, well, you seem to be talking for me, and it's really refreshing that you reveal yourself as being so human. And then other people say about the same thing about the talks, you know, it's way too personal. So anyway, we'll see what it is today, huh? So lately I've been thinking about the subject of enlightenment. This is a subject dear to our hearts because we feel that it would be nice to have it, and having enlightenment would in some way make all the difference, we think, you know.

[03:20]

So I want to talk about this today. I want to talk a little bit about enlightenment. I have no idea, you know, what enlightenment is, but I'll talk about it anyway. One of the most famous expressions about enlightenment, of course, for us is in Dogen's Moon in a Dew Drop. Well, it's in the Genjo Koan or the Actualizing the Fundamental Point. It's a poetic expression. So he says, enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the entire moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected even in dew drops in the grass or in a single

[04:26]

drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not divide the water, and you cannot hinder enlightenment, just as the water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon, and each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dew drop and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. So it's very, you know, it's interesting, even though we hear something like this, people still want to make sure they have enlightenment. Didn't that sound like already the enlightenment is reflected in you, even if you're just a

[05:29]

puddle an inch wide, or even if you're just one drop of water, the moon, enlightenment is reflected there. And it doesn't do anything for you. Did you get that? It's not going to do anything for you. It's not like a tool or a resource or a savings account or an insurance policy or a magic wand, you know, and it's not going to be a help. And you can't get in the way of enlightenment, you can't hinder enlightenment, you know, so even if you think, I'm really messed up, but it's not like you could get in the way of enlightenment, you know, it just doesn't work like that. Enlightenment goes on, you know, manifesting itself, whether you're, you can't hinder it one way or another.

[06:29]

But somehow still, we'd like to have some indication, some sign, because somehow we still go on thinking, if I got it, that would make a difference, you know, and I made sure I had it, and if I had some experience of it, that would be helpful, you know. So it's some indication of how, you know, how we feel a lack in our life or, you know, something missing or, and basically it means like, probably, you know, it means we're still having problems and there's still difficulties. And maybe there wouldn't be if we got enlightened, you know, we have this kind of idea. Because things are pretty difficult, aren't they? You know, things are pretty difficult. The world is certainly difficult. Periodically I read, you know, about environmental damage and pollution and overpopulation and, you know, every other week or so, something.

[07:36]

And partly, I think also, you know, we would like to be enlightened because we feel we could love or like or accept the most perfect enlightened being. So we should become one of those in order to be acceptable and lovable, because we couldn't love somebody who's less than perfect, who is not fully enlightened, so we think. Even though Zen, you know, teaches us again and again to be present with things, to respect things, to be grateful and so on. So we sometimes, you know, in order to, you know, acquire the enlightenment or prove our enlightenment, sometimes we undergo, you know, we do various things but we try not to make any mistakes and we try to say just the right things and never get angry and, you know,

[08:59]

we think, you know, there's some characteristics associated with what enlightenment must be and how a perfect person behaves. So we set up standards of perfection. Maybe I could sit still through 40 minutes of zazen and if you do that, then maybe you could sit for a day and then maybe you could sit still for a week and surely that would indicate something, wouldn't it? And if nobody ever got mad at you and you said the right things, you know, that would indicate something and so on, you know, so. Oftentimes people are looking for indications or signs or characteristics that would be some proof of, you know, inherent worth, inherent value. So anyway, we also have another saying I want to bring up for you by the Zen teacher Sekito or Shirto in Chinese, I guess, something like that. And he said, it's a very famous saying, you know, in Soto Zen, mind itself is Buddha. And we're talking, you know, about each mind and every mind when we say mind itself.

[10:08]

It must include you already. Mind itself is Buddha, mind, Buddha, sentient beings, enlightenment, delusion. These are all different words for the same thing. You should know that your own aware essence is neither finite or infinite, neither pure nor defiled. It is still and complete. Your own aware essence is still and complete. So often what we do though, you know, this is saying, you know, each moment is the same. Each moment doesn't start out being enlightenment or delusion and can't be characterized. And actually, when you study, you find out, like Dogen, for instance, in another work says enlightenment cannot be discriminated. You know, do you understand? It can't be discriminated, so you can't say, discrimination means you can point at something

[11:12]

and say, that's enlightenment and that isn't. That means you can discriminate this from that, you know, the wall from the floor, you know, me from you. Enlightenment can't be discriminated, so there's no characteristics, there's no indications, there's no way that you could say, now I can tell, I've got the evidence, the indications, this must be enlightenment. So, you know, what we do is we tend to look at a moment of our awareness, of our experience and we say, could this be enlightenment? Well, it's, I'm a little tired today. Enlightenment's got to be better than this. I'm kind of distracted. Enlightenment couldn't be this distracted. I'm kind of anxious. Well, that couldn't be enlightenment. And then even when it gets pretty good, you know, gee, this is quite a state of mind. I feel collected and calm. Oh, but there's this little corner over here, it's a little fuzzy.

[12:14]

So you know, no matter how good it gets, we say, oh no, that couldn't be, that couldn't be enlightenment. It's still not good enough. So this is a problem, right? How will you ever get it then? If as long as you're looking for, you know, what characteristics would indicate that this particular moment must be enlightenment and then you keep finding some little problem or a bigger one. Yeah. So this way you can go on, you know, finding fault with yourself and finding some problem and something wrong indefinitely. Because you'll never, you'll never have a moment of experience and then if you do it'll go away. It'll be this one great fabulous moment or two and then it's gone and oh, you lost it. You know, so Suzuki Roshi and many people, they say, you know, you can't make a date with enlightenment.

[13:18]

And if you think enlightenment is being calm and collected, that's called attachment to enlightenment and that's also called delusion. You know, if you start making up indications for enlightenment, this is called delusion. This started out as enlightenment and now it's called delusion. You're already a Buddha but now you're acting like a sentient being. You're making up standards for yourself. We call that, you know, making up standards on your own and we caution people not to do that. We say, don't make up standards on your own or we say, don't slander the sky by looking at it through a pipe or you yourself, you know. That little place right there, it's not quite the way it should be. I mean, basically you're fine but that little place, that's quite right.

[14:25]

So, we say if you're looking for something calm and then Suzuki Roshi said at the, you know, at the end of a session, once it was in the, the lecture was reprinted recently in the Berkeley Newsletter. Here it is coming to the end of the session and he says, if you're ready to go back to your life now, that's good. That's the way it should be. If you want to go on sitting here, this is a delusion. You know, this isn't enlightenment. You're sticking to enlightenment if you want to go on sitting and you want to go on being calm and collected and, you know, peaceful and you're not ready for a busy life. And just to be busy, this is also enlightenment and to have difficulties, this is also enlightenment. Why would you think that it was just being calm and collected and cool and peaceful? So there again, there's, there's delusion. This is delusion. This is sticking to it. Sticking to enlightenment is the same as delusion. So anyway, sometimes, you know, I have a story I like that, you know, relates to this and

[15:35]

I want to share it with you today. I've talked about it before, so some of you may have heard this, but, you know, oftentimes we do want to train ourself or perfect ourself because we feel this would be the appropriate and good thing to do. And so this is a story about a grandmother and her three-year-old grandson. One day, the mother wanted to go away for the weekend, so she thought she would have her grandson, his name in the story is Daniel, stay with her mother. She was a little anxious about this because she knew her mother could be, could be pretty strict and really liked to, she had had a lot of experience as a little girl, how her mother wanted her to have good manners and behave just right. But she decided to take the chance. She knew that grandmother really liked the grandson. So she went away for the weekend and then when she came back, three-year-old came out

[16:37]

to the car, came running up to her and said, I don't want to stay with grandmother anymore. She hurt me. So little by little, mom had to see what happened. And it turned out the first evening that the son was there, they'd had dinner and then grandmother had made the grandson's favorite dessert, which in the story was cottage cheese souffle. I don't know, I've never had it. This is European, it's Swiss, I don't know. And after he'd finished his first helping, the little three-year-old boy reached out to help himself to seconds, which was something he was accustomed to doing at home. And grandmother reached out and put her hand on his and said, you have to ask the others if it's okay. He looked around the room and he said, where are the others?

[17:39]

And then he started crying and he had a fit. And then after a while, finally he calmed down and he said, I know how to help myself. And she said, yes, but it's good manners to ask permission. And he said, well, what do I need good manners for? And she said, you need good manners so the others will like you. And he said, at my mommy's house, I don't need good manners. When I'm hungry, I eat. In case you didn't know, this is the same as a famous Zen expression, when hungry, I eat, when tired, I sleep. This is three-year-old understanding, you know. So I read this story, you know, and I told this some years ago now, one day sitting here

[18:53]

and I right away when I heard this story related to the three-year-old. And I sympathized with the three-year-old. Somebody's trying to straighten him out and he's not understanding quite. And then later that day, though, when I had a question and answer period, it turned out that almost everybody in the group had sympathized with the grandmother. Those kids need to be disciplined. They need to be taught manners. Otherwise, you don't know what they'll do. And they do all these mischievous, awful things. Sometimes they do those mischievous, awful things, you know, to get away from somebody who's disciplining them. It's like if you decide to diet, you know, and you give yourself a regimen and you tell yourself, eat this, don't eat that, or you don't even give it to yourself.

[19:53]

You get it from somebody else who says, it's a great plan. You should follow this. Do what I tell you. It's good for you. It'll work. You'll lose weight. So if you just do what you're told, everything will be okay and you'll lose weight. Everything will be fine. So you try to tell yourself what to do. And after a while, what happens? You have to binge to get away from this terrible disciplinarian and, you know, authoritarian, you know, person who's imposing this regimen on you. So the only way to get away from that is to binge. And then that person shuts up for a little while, but the drawback is that when you come to again, you know, then they, then that voice says, see, I told you. You're not doing what I told you to do. And if I leave you to your own devices, look what you do. This is the problem. Anyway, so most of the people want, you know, related to the grandmother. So I realized that, well, the point isn't whether exactly whether you identify

[20:53]

with the three-year-old or identify with the grandmother. We all have a grandmother and every time you have a grandmother, there's a three-year-old, you know, and sometimes grandmother is one way and sometimes she's another, but they exist, you know, in relation to each other. But usually it's the, and we never know quite for sure who's going to start acting out, but because usually it's a three-year-old, but not always. And then I got a letter from one of the people who had been at the retreat and she said, oh, when you told that story, I right away identified with the three-year-old and tears came to my eyes. And then I was sitting there the next period and I got really annoyed with those people who were fidgeting. And I wanted to tell them to sit still. And I wish that you would. And some of them had on those little nylon jackets, you know, that are sort of puppy and every little fidget they made was this little noise.

[21:56]

And I wanted them to be quiet. And I told, you know, and there wasn't anything I could do. And all the time that I was feeling that way, I felt claustrophobic. You know, who's disciplining who? You know, we think, oh, I'm going to straighten them out. But it makes you nervous because you know that could just as well be directed towards you and most of the time it is. So then the letter went on and said, you know, after a while I decided I imagined that I was on a train pleasantly anonymous in a foreign country. I wasn't about to correct anybody's behavior. And I felt so relaxed then and so free. So this is a new Zen, recommended Zen practice, you know. Imagine you're on a train pleasantly anonymous in a foreign country. You don't go around correcting the manners of these people in this other place.

[23:00]

They have their own customs. Anyway, you know, we're trying to find out how to have the grandmother and the three-year-old get along and they can't do without each other. And so it's not a matter of whether one is right or wrong or who's right or who's wrong or who's better or who's worst, you know, and who's really at fault. They have to get along. They have to find out some way to appreciate one another. But usually we think or we have a tendency to think that, you know, one or the other is enlightenment. We might think that if I just get myself to do all these things, I can follow the schedule at Green Gulch or I do this or people never get mad at me and, you know, I never get upset or, you know, we have these various things

[24:03]

and then that's like the grandmother. But then sometimes we think, well, if I just learn to be spontaneous and do whatever occurs to me, that would be really enlightened. It's not quite right. We're already enlightened. We don't have anything to prove. So I want to tell you another grandmother story that kind of, that for me indicates something about, you know, already enlightened. This is a few years ago I went to Cassandra Light's doll show, you know, which every year people, primarily it's been women, make a life-size figure. The face and hands and feet are porcelain and then there's a body structure with dowels and cotton batting and there's little objects for the chakras. And then there's cotton batting and then canvas for the skin and clothing, costumes, so these figures appear. And during the course of the nine months or a year that people are working on this,

[25:06]

they also have meetings, you know, once a week for three or four hours and they do what's known as process work. You know, write a letter to your father telling him all the things that you never told him before. You know, good things, bad things, whatever. You know, various things. So at this one show there was a... And then each of the figures at the show, at the doll show, has a story that goes with it. So there was this wonderful-looking older woman, very sweet face. And then the story was my grandmother. And it said when I was eight, I had always wondered about my grandmother and all the other kids at school seemed to have grandparents and I wondered, you know, where was my grandparent? So I asked my father one day, where is my grandmother?

[26:08]

And he said, the Nazi bastards killed her. Then she said, I knew never to ask again. But I always missed my grandmother. And I always wished I'd wanted, you know, I'd wanted to meet her and to know her. And during the course of the year that she had been working on this doll, she said I'd often told people about my never having met my grandmother and I didn't realize I was making my grandmother all along until the figure was nearly completed. And then several people in my group said, gee, that figure looks like it could be the grandmother you've been talking to us about. And she realized that it was, in fact, her grandmother. And then she said, and then when I saw my grandmother there, I realized my grandmother had been in me all along. So I feel the same now. You know, when I look back on my practice, I don't see any difference.

[27:13]

And I realize, you know, it's been there all along. But it's not, you know, whatever it is, it's not something special or something to stick to or something to, you know, that's good for anything. So we say your own aware essence is still incomplete. We say you already have Buddha nature. You don't have anything to prove. You don't have anything to perfect. So this kind of changes, you know, the way you can be in your life if you have, you know, as you awaken this kind of confidence. So in Zen we say just handle each moment with sincerity.

[28:17]

And sincerity, I like the definition, the S-I-N of sincerity means without. And the C-E-R-E is wax in some etymologies, without wax. And the wax is what, you know, even to this day, you can, in a metal, in a bronze sculpture, you can put wax in the imperfections and smooth it all out. Looks really good. And in the old days, sometimes people would clip out a part of a coin and then fill that part with the wax and color it so it looked like it was still a whole coin. So without wax means, you know, sincere, means the imperfections show. You don't have to cover everything over. You don't have to be dismayed when some imperfection is pointed out.

[29:20]

Because you don't have to be dismayed or upset or annoyed or angry that someone finds an imperfection or you notice an imperfection because you weren't trying to hide it. You weren't trying to cover it with wax. This is to be sincere. So we say in Zen, be sincere. Handle things sincerely. You know, take care of things as best you can. Respond to the moment. Let the things of your life come home to your heart and let your heart respond to things. So this sense about enlightenment is also like many of you, I'm sure, are familiar with Mary Oliver's poem, the one that starts out, you don't have to walk on your... It's going to be loud if I call. You know, Mary Oliver's poem.

[30:25]

You don't have to walk on your knees a hundred miles across the desert repenting. You don't have to be good. You don't have to walk on your knees a hundred miles across the desert repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. We also have sayings in Zen, you know, the Zen master Tenke said, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, taste with your mouth. Nothing in the universe is hidden. What would you have me say? In this way we each have already, you know, the capacity, the wonderful capacity to be a human being. Everything is there. What will we do?

[31:30]

So another way to sometimes, you know, to think about enlightenment, sometimes we say then, you know, setting aside whether you have it or not, what would you do if you did have it? Oh, get started. You know, sometimes we say, well, I'd like to be kind or friendly, but I don't think I'm enlightened enough for that. Or I'd like to be kind, but I don't think I'm enlightened enough for that. Or I'd like to, I'd like to offer that person a suggestion, but I don't really feel like, you know, like I'm enlightened enough. So what is it you really want to do? And can you start doing that however, you know, however awkwardly it is? Can you start, will you start, you know, acting on your real wish? So that's one way to think about enlightenment. You can really set aside whether you have it or not.

[32:38]

And what is it you really want? Because it's understood in Buddhism that what you really want, who you really are is already enlightened. What you really want is already wisdom. Who you already are, you know, who you are is already compassion. So then we don't need to be busy telling ourself, do this, don't do that. And, you know, give ourself a regimen. You know, then we're becoming grandmother again, training the three-year-old. So it's very subtle, you know, how to work with a three-year-old, you know, or how to be a grandmother. So Suzuki Roshi used to say also, when you're a parent, you might think you're a good parent or you might think you're a bad parent,

[33:38]

but if you're trying to be a good parent, this is a good parent. You know, so that's what we, all we can do. We keep trying to realize and to express our deep wish. We also say sometimes about, you know, enlightenment, we say, why don't you practice noticing or finding enlightenment in each moment? You know, instead of noticing, like, what about this moment isn't enlightenment? What about this moment is? Or realizing or reminding yourself that in addition to whatever faults you find or imperfections, you notice that this also must be enlightenment. Enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is vast and great,

[34:43]

the entire moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky is reflected even in two drops in the grass or one drop of water. Enlightenment doesn't divide you. Just as the moon does not divide the water. You know, this part is enlightenment, that's not. This is the grandmother, this is the three-year-old. That's a division. Enlightenment doesn't divide you. Some part has to improve the other part. You cannot hinder enlightenment just as the water doesn't hinder the moon and the sky. The height of the drop, the depth of the drop is the height of the moon.

[35:46]

You feel really small. That's the height of the moon. Do you understand? That really small person, that's the height of the moon. Okay. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the limitlessness, the vastness of the dew drop and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky. Whatever else you call it. You know, your confusion or your despair or your discouragement or your sorrow or your grief or your anger, your joy, your happiness, whatever else you call it, it's also reflecting enlightenment. So Dogen has another saying also. One moment of zazen by one person

[36:48]

imperceptibly accords with all things, imperceptibly accords with all things and resonates with all time. Thus in the future, the past and the present, this zazen manifests the Buddha's teaching endlessly. It's not just zazen, it's moment. Thank you.

[37:54]

Perhaps I've talked enough, but I'm going to tell you one short story. One last sort of item. I almost died. A while back I read the book, A Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World's Getting Worse. I mean, we could say, you know, 2500 years of Buddhism and the world's getting worse too. I mean, that's even worse. I found it a rather enjoyable book by James Hillman and Michael Ventura. It's a little irreverent at times. James Hillman, of course, is a well-known Jungian analyst and Michael Ventura used to write for the LA Weekly and wrote a wonderful book about the history of rock and roll and how it's related to voodoo and various things. It's quite fun. And also he wrote a book about 3 a.m. in the morning and how even in Mormon Utah, time and space are no longer the same as they used to be.

[39:00]

You know, you used to have a dry town, but now you can go right outside town to the 7-Eleven and, you know, you can buy beer. And in places where things used to be pretty strict, they can, at 3 a.m. in the morning, they can be watching the Playboy channel on cable TV. So the world is not isolated and, you know, dividable the way it used to be. It's sort of like what we've been talking about, isn't it? Interesting. Well, anyway, in A Hundred Years of Psychotherapy, why I'm telling you about it is just this. Because they have an idea in, you know, in their terminology, very similar to what I've been talking about. You know, because they say, they say that the tendency in psychoanalysis or, you know, when someone has a problem, then they think, oh, I have to do something about this. What's it called? How do I get rid of this? And what they remind us is

[40:01]

it's only damaging if you think it's a problem. You know, a grandmother says, you've got to do something about that. Because then there's a separation in the psyche. One part is saying, you can't be like that. And the other part says, uh-oh. And then there's some attempt to, you know, either rebel or behave and, you know, and so then the two parts of the psyche are clashing because one part says, you've got a problem. So they say, anything that appears is only damaging if you think, when you think it's a problem. And that this is the tendency for us as Americans and especially from their point of view, white middle-class Americans, that when something comes up in your psyche, the question is, what am I going to do about this? How do I get rid of it? And getting rid of it, they say, you know, what's there in your psyche,

[41:02]

they refer to as ore. It's the raw materials. And then you say, well, how do I get rid of it? And then they say, but you don't have a, you're just throwing out everything you have. It's like saying, you know, you have a moment of experience and you look at it and say, oh, this is an enlightenment. What did you just do with your moment of experience? You threw it out. Do you understand? If you check your moment of experience and you say, oh, well, that was okay. It was pretty good, but still wasn't enlightenment. Out of here. How do you think you feel after a while? Then you can have two reactions. You know, one is you get pretty discouraged and depressed. Or the other is you get really resentful and you say, I'll show them. I'll show that person who thinks I don't measure up. And then you try even harder to measure up. And then the other part says, well, you still don't. That was pretty good.

[42:06]

But, you know, you could do better still. So this is when you, when we don't, this is in psychological terms, when we don't recognize, you know, something about our original enlightenment, something about having trust or confidence in our original nature. In mind itself is Buddha. And then it's ascension being, it's a delusion if you decide it's a problem. Then it becomes damaging. So they say, well, our tendency is either try to get rid of something. People say, how do I get rid of anger? Like, yeah, we should just get rid of it. But did you just got it? I mean, did you just get rid of everything in your psyche? I mean, what's left? And so we have more of the, you know, more of the, in Zen we have more of the idea of, well, sit with it for a while. You know, sit with it, be with it. Don't worry about it one way or another. Okay, don't, don't take it all so seriously

[43:07]

like you were going to try to measure up and get enlightened. And, you know, and then when you finally got the picture complete, you know, oh, oh yes, now they look like an enlightened person because they've gotten rid of this and they've cleared up that. So they say the same thing in, you know, in Michael Ventura and James Hillman. And then they say, if you're not getting rid of it, if you're not busy getting rid of it, then you get busy processing it. And they say processing it is the same as getting rid of it. It's exploitative. Or you're going to use it. You want to use it. And it's all trying to exploit this stuff in your psyche. Instead of just kind of like letting yourself be in some way, you know, not being in too much of a rush to take up, you know, grandmothers, you know, to be grandmother. You know, you've got to ask the others if it's okay. I mean, yeah, we're trying to find out how to live in the world, you know, and how to realize ourselves

[44:07]

and how to, you know, manifest our, you know, to be sincere. And sometimes we do pretty well, and sometimes we don't. So thank you very much for your sincere effort. Contingent equally. To visit if you have any questions or comments, interests. Are you sure you are our substitute for the same thing? Different words for the same thing. Yes. I really like the idea of you don't have a problem unless you think you have a problem.

[45:08]

It's almost enough to make me want to quit therapy. Kidding, kidding. Well, you know, Michael Murphy finally gave it up. Michael? He... I was at Esalen in February and they were there for a board meeting and so Michael said that he went to about the first 300, you know, seminars at Esalen and that... and he found out eventually that he said that the process is endless. So you could analyze, you know, endlessly your mother, your father, this, that and the other thing and you would never get to the bottom of it. So he said, I've gone on to other things. I think your meditation is much more to the point, but Esalen has a momentum of its own so I can't get them to change. They still want to keep doing this and a lot of people still like it. But it does seem to have

[46:09]

a usefulness and oftentimes there's not any really particularly useful place for us to talk to somebody and oftentimes talking to somebody else we get to tell ourselves things that we wouldn't hear otherwise. It seems to be useful at times. Therapy. Yes. What you were describing and talking about in the lecture, I understood more as suchness, you know, that everything is suchness, unsuchness and reflection of suchness and so forth. For me the understanding, in my ignorance, that what enlightenment is the understanding or the recognition of the suchness and that without that understanding or recognition there is as much separateness as if there was an actual separateness. So to me that is what enlightenment is and if that is the case then no, we are not all enlightened. Because we say exactly what you're saying

[47:13]

that we're all enlightened but we don't always see it. And then you can say that's not enlightened but then on the other hand it is. Otherwise you wouldn't be having the sign saying don't waste time or Buddha wouldn't have been spending as much time as he was trying to show people how to reach a certain point of wisdom. And I think I can sort of look when everybody is saying we're all enlightened. Yeah, that's possible. You know we say different things at various times. I stand corrected. Yes. With respect to the question about therapy. There are people who are

[48:14]

a little worse off and they're in the psychiatric realm and are taking medications and experiencing clinical depression and feelings come over them that are seemingly unbearable and they pile on their own cognitive layers on top of that and make things worse. Where does all this fit in? I don't even know how to ask this question. I appreciated recently could you all hear? I could hear him, I was sitting next to him. It's a question about people with serious psychiatric or cognitive disorders chronic depression who are actually in wards and perhaps medicated and feelings that are pretty much unbearable and pile up on one another and so forth. I don't know that anybody

[49:17]

has the answer to that or the one answer to that and so what I wanted to bring up was what somebody said recently is that if you're going to try to help people which most of us would like to do we'd like to help people and sometimes we'd like to even just to get along with even one person kind of well or we don't always pick out the right person maybe to do that. But what somebody was saying recently is if you're going to try to help people you should unconditionally accept that there will be people you can't do anything for and then you can help people. Otherwise you start getting on sort of a power trip and you start telling people that they have too much resistance and that's just I don't know whether you call it the lack of karmic affinity or what but whatever we say as far as an answer

[50:18]

or some possible help it may not help everybody. So I'm not whatever I say I'm not trying to be an answer. So we're all studying what can we do to help. How does that person help themselves? I feel I believe that the basic Buddhist sensibility or teaching of experiencing your experience can be profoundly helpful. You know that to be able to mindfully experience any particular moment what the experience of that moment is seems to help people and seems to be healing for people. And sometimes it's true that I think that sometimes people are so in a sense layer on layer as you're saying that it's very difficult for them to even stop for a moment

[51:19]

and experience an inhalation or an exhalation or just to actually stay with one feeling or that feeling. I think most of us are in a situation that it's pretty difficult to experience our feelings and especially strong feelings and intense feelings. Someone I'm acquainted with recently her daughter just who's 13 or 14 I guess made a suicide attempt. She tried to cut her wrist which is pretty hard to do and so it's basically an indication of what we call a cry for help. But what I know of that family nobody is able to have much in the way of feelings. So certainly it's pretty difficult then when you're 14 and you can't have any feelings. You're not supposed to have any feelings and then how can you do that? So I don't know how to convey it

[52:20]

that you can that you actually can experience your experience and give somebody the confidence to do that and not everybody is in a position to hear a teaching like that or respond to it but there are now various therapies which actually are oriented actually in that direction to experiencing what your experience is in the present moment. Your physical sensations and can you actually feel your body the weight your weight on the cushion and what is the feeling and can you name the feeling and can you experience it and so on. In what little I've done therapy I found it very interesting at one point I was doing a therapy you know the Hakome I did that a few times and then the person I was doing it with decided to quit for a while to write a book. But he

[53:22]

you know I was there I'm you know it's like at some point sometimes you go to therapy because other people tell you you have a problem. Or you are a problem. You are a problem. So I'm here because people have told me I need to do something about this. Well you know that is a little hard for a therapist to work with right. And he said to me you don't seem to want to be here. So I said no I don't want to be here. And then I got you know in the meantime I'm here because people say that I need to work on this stuff. Anyway I got a lot more energy. You know when he could notice what I'm actually in a way what I'm actually feeling is angry and annoyed that people are seeing me like this. Why I didn't want to be there and how annoying it was

[54:25]

and you know all these things. But he was he was very helpful at times like you know can you notice what you're feeling in your chest or in your stomach. And it's not just talk. But anyway that doesn't work for everybody. So I have a friend you know Tony Patchell maybe some of you know him. Tony was a Zen student for many years and we were at Tussar together and he's a street therapist for the city of San Francisco and his clients are primarily IV drug users with AIDS and it's homeless people you know. And he says the most effective therapy that he has seen is cognitive therapy behavioral cognitive therapy where people have to straighten out the way they think. And he's had people go to San Francisco General and it's a three week program a three month program. And there's somebody who goes through that and they're just a different person even in three months. I think it's the cognitive behavior therapy.

[55:27]

And even people who are out there on the street who are homeless and so forth and then they they're like another person. So at least some people you know have responded to that. And they a lot of what he does is just helping people deal with the system. But his from his experience that's been the most effective kind of therapy. The cognitive behavior. I think it's the belief system how you think about things. Everybody's this everybody's well what how do you you know what's the evidence for that. And why do you say that. And then and so you you start to sort out your the thoughts that just pop out of you. And which of them are actually accurate or not accurate. You actually look at that. So I also did cognitive behavior. So you know I found it all kind of annoying because I thought I thought pretty clearly. And so when I would say something

[56:32]

and the therapist would say now why do you think that. I'm like isn't it obvious. And then to have to sort of try to say and then you know not be able to say and then gosh I guess you know that's not an accurate kind of thought to have. It's very frustrating but actually it ended up being very helpful. And it was after doing that for a year or so it was then that I decided it may have had something to do with the therapy. I decided I'm a nice person. I may have problems but basically I'm a nice person. And nice people can have problems. I'm a good hearted person. And and I don't have to. And I'm not ever going to be perfect. You know and I'm not ever going to get along with everybody impeccably. Whoever they are. But that doesn't mean that I'm not a nice person fundamentally. So it's the same thing I was talking about today. You know and I decided that after the cognitive behavior therapy. I don't know who's next. I'll come back to you.

[57:34]

I've done a lot of therapy over the years starting many years ago. And I always felt that for years that I used to say to the therapist I was in group therapy for the last couple of years. Like you're trying to fix something. But just like I said that was kind of nagging at me. And the more involved I got with Zen recently like in the last few years the more I was able to be in the moment and start experiencing what was really going on with me instead of trying to figure it out or trying to understand it or analyze it. And I dropped out of group therapy probably like three months ago. I don't miss it at all. It's just I think therapy is valuable to a point. That's my feeling. But you're trying to fix something

[58:35]

about the mind about the ego. And on a different level well not any of it. So somehow therapy helped me realize what it seems like in the case I'm talking about. So it's interesting. We never quite know what helps us. Also I've been doing Zen practice for a number of years. So we never quite know what are the factors that bring us to something. So I'm careful to try to say I have the same feeling as you're saying about therapy. Because the therapist at some point and you know in my feeling and then you know James Hillman and Michael Ventura certainly agree that sometimes the therapist can collude with the patient who comes in wanting to fix something and then you're supposed to help them fix that by golly or they're not going to pay you. You know they're not your client. And if you just tell them everything is perfect just as it is so the therapist is colluding. Yeah there goes your patient. The therapist colludes with the grandmother

[59:36]

to fix you. And then why would you identify more with that part of yourself than the part needing to be fixed. In Zen this is in the there's a series of ten ox herding pictures. So the idea in the Zen tradition is you notice something's wrong and then you try to tame the ox. You start trying to tame the beast of your life. So after a while you realize well who needs taming. You know the rider. You know and the person who's so busy and wants so desperately to fix things and is so annoyed that things are not the way that I want them to be. And it's so upsetting to me that you're behaving like this. And that's the person that needs the therapy at some point. You know as opposed to actually you could get the other part of you to behave better. And to measure up to that. So at some point though you know the understanding in Zen is that those two are the same person obviously. But what happens over time is the rider begins to instead of trying to get

[60:38]

you know to make oneself acceptable the rider can accept more. The rider or the person doing the taming the person doing the fixing can accept more becomes more accepting. And realizes in a way that that's actually more helpful. I mean I literally said to myself at one point excuse me but the way you're talking to me is very discouraging. It's very depressing when you keep finding all these things wrong and telling me about them. It's really hard on me and it's very discouraging and I can feel like you're really trying to help me. And you really want you know me to improve or do better or various things and you wish the best for me. This isn't helping. Can you find another way? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can talk to yourself differently and then you know whether you call that Zen or cognitive behavior I mean I don't know at some point it's irrelevant. There's some people back here who had your hands up and then in the black I don't know who was first

[61:40]

but you were first. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Some of these have the idea that there are seven stations to the soul. And so at different stations you need different things. Things, yeah. And, pardon? Okay. And that even you might need different kinds of therapy at different times and maybe there are times when you don't need any therapy at all but that it seems like to call therapy good is to encompass this you know too thoroughly something that may not be needed and on the other hand to throw it out is like throwing the baby out with the back foot. You might it's just such a complex thing. Yeah. And I'm feeling like it's it's I'm trying to danger in what I hear here this morning about about it's an either or thing that I hear happening. I'm trying to say what you're saying. Yeah. Maybe you said it better than some people can hear it. I don't know. Your idea of self-acceptance I think should be

[62:40]

the basis of all therapies but then if a person is thinking crazily how do you help them accept their crazy thinking? So sometimes you have to sort it out a bit. Yeah. You have to sort it out and help them see where it's crazy. But to tell them it's crazy may not be the way the right entry in. Yeah. Well there's another whole school of thought which is not entirely irrelevant here which is that some studies basically show that therapy works I forget the term. All I can think of is haphazardly. But anyway therapy seems to work not intermittently it's therapy seems to work regardless of the kind of therapy it is for some people and not for others and for the same number of people and you know and not for the same number of people. So therapy seems to work you know and so some people say basically it seems to be at some point and it's true with Zen practice too

[63:40]

who do you have the therapy with and is there a connection with the person or not? It's the relationship. And so it's relationship. It's relationship it's a relationship where something changes. So what you're looking for really is you know somewhere a relationship and that can be again you know it can be your friendship your marriage you know a Zen person a therapist you know from the Zen point of view what fundamentally helps people. I have a friend who had an eating problem and I never understood the severity of it until years later but she said what finally helped her was a decision that she made to figure it out. I'm going to get to the bottom of this I'm going to sort this out for myself in my own experience. Now that's a Buddhist approach. Now sometimes if you go to a therapist the therapist could give you know could encourage you to do that. So that you know that doesn't make it any then it's at some point it's not any different whether we call it

[64:41]

therapy or Buddhism but that's very powerful and she said I decided to sort things out for myself because she tried therapy she tried going to gurus she tried doing what other people told her to do and then everybody said you have too much resistance you're not doing what we told you you're not following the plan. So finally decided I better figure this out for myself. And she said I had no reason to believe I could do this because I've never been able to and I decided to do it anyway. And now that's a kind of you know decision that we say has you know muscle or power in it and the power is that's a kind of recognition of your inherent enlightenment that you actually have the capacity to sort things out in your life. And and that's basic you know fundamentally that's beginning of Buddhism but you know it doesn't mean that somebody has to be a Buddhist to do that. Beginning of Buddhism is you know it's a way it's like the first of the twelve steps and you know an AA. My life hasn't worked I'm going to sort this out

[65:41]

I'm going to figure it out. And I'm capable of doing that and that doesn't mean that I can't listen to anybody you know I can't you know engage other people or whatever but I'm going to figure this out. Yes? I have several questions that are sort of all together. One is what if a grandmother had used skillful means that have changed things? The other is when we read about the Buddha he was a very tamer of people so what does it mean to tame? Does it mean to like teach them good manners and at the same time recognize their suchness? And then what's your take on the priesthood? Laughter And my fourth question Laughter Robert Thurman was here and he was talking about how we can grow in the language you know and that we sort of like limit our expectations of who we are and you know we could get to a point where we could know somebody's

[66:42]

pinky is pretty and the last girl in the Zendo you know so I wondered what Yeah What's that? I could remember the first three there for a while Laughter Oh yeah the grandmother Yeah Yeah Okay Yeah Yes Yes Yes Yes Next question Laughter And I care about the answer Laughter Well I I do think that the grandmother can you know can use different means and different means do make a difference What we say makes a difference and how and and I you know one of my favorite stories

[67:42]

for instance is is speaking of you know somebody you know accepting you as you are and still saying something there was a whole period of time at Tassajara when I was a student in the 60s when I was quite angry you know the classic expression is you've got shit on your nose and then everything you do sort of stinks and everybody you meet stinks and so on and you don't realize for a long time that you're the one with the shit on your nose and people had lots of advice from me and and then finally at one point I was Suzuki Roshi and I was talking to Suzuki Roshi and he said to me you know I've been hearing that you know people feel you have a problem with anger and and he said you can get angry if you want but don't it's all in the timing

[68:47]

you know just when you relax and feel like it's okay for me to have this problem but that was very interesting because it's different than saying you can get angry and it's different than saying don't get angry actually where somebody can give you both those messages and there's a certain truth to that you know because basically it has to do with I mean one way of looking at it is that you study you try to be present enough to notice the moment when you flick the on switch for anger because if you catch yourself turning the on switch then you know you can turn it off and so you're watching watching watching and then there's some moment where you decide this warrants my anger and then boom you know this deserves it or this and something clicks and that clicking is like habitual for a long time

[69:48]

and then once you've turned it off you know or found that switch then the anger is not so oppressive after that and all encompassing it's something more like comes and goes and you don't and you don't have the same sense of the of it discoloring your you know fundamental nature and being who you are and so on but anyway that's an interesting kind of expression that's an example of some expression as far as tamers I mean I think that it's hard to know but somehow the people who seem to be good at taming people do both of those they're both very accepting and they can also say something you know about what's what and how to behave the Buddha was much more accepting than his disciples from all you know all we can gather you know and he could accept people who had been murderers and various things that the disciples couldn't and he could recognize

[70:49]

you know perhaps a change in their heart and so on so he seemed to be more tolerant in that way so we have the saying also it's very you know we're all studying this the taming because also Suzuki Roshi in his book says if you want to tame your sheep or cow give them a large pasture because you know part of this what is taming is to notice how if you overdo the aspect of taming you know then the then the aspect that is being tamed you know escapes in another direction you know so the classic thing is if you the harder you try not to be angry and to control yourself and the tighter you get the more at some point you blow up and because because there's such an effort to be contained and controlled and so forth and then there's blowing up so what is a good tamer then is it is it ongoing study

[71:49]

and is it kind of like you could grow in enlightenment in that sense you know because you continue to study it and I don't have the I don't have the final answer you know I've been studying this for a long time and I keep studying it trying to notice so yes I really appreciated when you said the thing about a problem is only a problem if you call it a problem because it it seems to me like that allows you to experience your experience more including the depression question last but where I got where I found myself questioning that is when you violate another person physically like if you strike another person then that seems to me like that's a problem yeah well then there's there's what you experience as a problem and there's what other people you know experience as a problem so the striker may not experience this so the striker may not be experiencing the problem and usually actually the person doing the striking

[72:50]

is not experiencing the problem because they're not experiencing the problem and that's why they're doing the striking you know if you actually can experience your anger you don't have to hit somebody right it's when you can't experience your anger that you inflict it on somebody else I mean I think that's pretty basic and but also this does bring up the question that you know anybody can go around and say I'm enlightened I don't have a problem with the way I behave what's your problem well you know you shouldn't have a problem with it either that's what I was doing when I was angry all the time you know and Katagiri Roshi said to me other people have a problem with your being angry and I said well wait a minute I'm just being who I am I mean no they should get used to it I mean that's their problem if they have a problem with it well see that's if but that's not quite right you know the fact is then other people finding a problem is also your problem it's you know

[73:52]

and the fact that they can do that I mean anyway we keep we're studying always like how do I express myself and I said earlier part of the idea of Zen is first of all in the context of this that you can experience what's happening you're studying you're training yourself to be able to experience what's going on and in a certain sense to digest that so because people who when usually when somebody strikes it means they haven't they're not capable of experiencing their anger that's why they're striking and if they could experience their anger then it wouldn't it wouldn't move their arm to strike and and then the study is the continuation of that study is we're trying to find some way to express our ourselves you know in a way that is nourishing for other people I mean I think that's a fundamental you know what Buddhism says anyway that's fundamental human wish is to benefit

[74:54]

others to you know to wish for our own happiness and the happiness of all beings and it's basic that we we would rather not harm we prefer and our nature is to not harm others so you can see how our wish to not harm others often leads us then to do a kind of overtaming but the fundamental wish is fine the fundamental wish is is true that we would we don't want to cause harm but then at some point we're we're so careful not to cause harm that we're doing a different kind of harm you know and we're not letting ourselves feel our experience and we're not giving ourselves the option to to find some other way to do something you know it's a simple thing like in Dan Goldman's book the emotional intelligence I haven't read the book but just in some of the reviews he you know they're teaching kids now when you if you get angry I met somebody who does this in the high schools in San Francisco Tassajar and he says well one of the things we do to start

[75:54]

with is you know because of the 49ers you started 49 and count down to zero that's just to give yourself a chance to cool out a little bit and then think of before you do anything think of three things or five things that you could do and then choose among those instead of just so that gives you a chance to experience what you're experiencing to come up with a variety of options and then pick the option instead of just assuming that you well of course your response your natural response is you know appropriate and useful and helpful when you haven't even stopped to consider what however you know other responses excuse me is pat here we have a medical question thank you you know it seems to me what you're talking about with Goldman's book is that if you have a choice you can feel more in control of it it's when you don't feel in control that the bully behavior or the

[76:54]

when you don't feel in control happens but once you know you can make that choice there's a lot of control and it has to do with talking it out instead of acting talking it out even to yourself just to put words to it and say I'm angry or to say to somebody else I'm angry but acting out behaviors like the binging you were talking about or probably some form of your anger when people were commenting on it or hitting I mean that's all acting out behavior there's lots of kinds but it's because we don't put words to it that do it yeah I'm I'm not I think I'm not sure about that I understand that words have a great power and I'm but I'm not sure that that you know that that that labeling something as anger is is that it necessarily has to be those words I understand you know language does have a tremendous power

[77:55]

because it's it's partly to have language in words that we actually can recognize our experience and and be with our experience so there's a there's a real truth to that and it has wide application so that may be that may be accurate to say that I'm just trying to think in my own experience whether I'm always you know sometimes in my own experience I just don't I just don't have the words and it's part of when I'm in that space it's part of what makes it so painful and difficult it's a little bit like I think it's Judith Herman is she the one who did Trauma and Recovery that book? she says she quotes somebody who says if I could if I could say I was lost or confused that would be a step forward so maybe you're right you know well it's not easy to find those words I mean sometimes I have to give them form or shape or color I can give them something of color

[78:55]

but I can't always but then that's a little closer to it isn't it what's the name of the book you just oh Trauma and Recovery the part about the trauma is especially useful I think I was less impressed with the recovery part although there are some important points there so many books review yes I find you on second listening to be more entertaining I wanted to thank you for that and I just I think that a lot of what we're talking about is the only thing that I get a little nervous about hearing is the idea of doing something completely alone because I think the important thing in Zen there's always the tradition of working with a teacher just like there is a therapist or a sponsor or something in a 12 step program or something but the important thing is like somebody has a relationship to be involved with somebody and not necessarily that exchange being the most important thing but the fact that you are at some level willing to participate

[79:55]

in your life I guess and you can say recovery or you're dealing with your problem and people I know who've had difficulties and everything in my own experience I've working with another person has really been a big improvement you know on my life and it hasn't and I've also found myself wanting to blame that person when things don't get better you know and I and I you know I finally realized you know that that person is you know working with me perhaps you know for getting better or in another way and it's the important thing is just the doing and sometimes perhaps the tradition or the you know the name that we put on that relationship isn't as important as the fact that we're involved in and that's been real helpful to me Yeah I think that's what you were saying earlier that in terms of the therapy the notion is it makes all the difference if you feel

[80:57]

you have a companion whether you know the companion is the sponsor or the Zen teacher or the therapist or who it is that you have a companion and the interesting thing is you know and some people have a companion in Jesus or God you know and it's very real to them because when you feel that you're just alone it's much harder somehow to receive your experience to be with your experience the interesting thing is I mean one of the to me one of the interesting things is that and I remember now it's something I wanted to mention to you but we've we've talked about taming and various things and you know one of the basic metaphors or practices in the Zen tradition or in any Buddhist meditation tradition is following the breath and and classically the this is this is very carefully described as a kind of not interfering and not and trying not to tame the breath or correct or adjust the breath so when you're aware of the breath it's that

[81:57]

you let a long breath be long you let a short breath be short you let a deep breath be deep or you notice a shallow breath is shallow you're aware that a calm breath is calm you know an agitated breath is agitated and you're not trying to fix it and what happens is the more that people are trying to fix their breath make it long and deep and calm then after a while they can't breathe you know because it's trying to tell your breath that you know better how to breathe than your breath does and after a while it makes your breath nervous you know and it makes your breath like agitated and pretty soon your breath can't do anything you can't breathe because your breath is sitting there like my god you know I can't make a move and then and he she he's trying to fix me you know so then you get paralyzed I mean and this is literally you know people have this I've had this experience in meditation and a simple thing to do at that point is take a few breaths through your mouth

[82:57]

and when you because it's easier to let go of that kind of thinking when you breathe through your mouth for a couple breaths and then when you come back to your breath see if you can let it be as it is and the more you can let your breath be as it is your breath gets very naturally that's very relaxing for your breath nobody's trying to fix it nobody's trying to make it better nobody's trying to improve on it and so fundamentally you know at a certain point the awareness the awareness that can do that is like a companion but also when somebody can be with you in that way then you can do it you know so for me it was very important the few times um you know one of the first times I mean when I very started sitting uh in 1965 and the first one day the first time I went we used to have at Centenary on Bush Street we used to uh have two periods of zazen starting at five and then there'd be breakfast and then we'd have a period of cleaning and then there was two periods of zazen or so in a lecture at ten and um

[83:59]

I didn't I had no idea that you know doing meditation hurt I thought it was some kind of mind thing you know like you just train your mind um and so it was a surprise to me when my legs started hurting my knees were starting to throb and so I was sitting there and I started gritting my teeth and getting all agonized and you know my breath stopped I stopped breathing I started holding my breath waiting for the pain to go away you can only hold your breath so long uh anyway the woman who was sitting next to me was Jane Ross she happened to be she was the president of Zen Center she'd done you know she'd been to Japan uh to AHE and various things she was sitting there and she put her hand on my knee and she didn't go like there there it's okay and she didn't say and her hand didn't say you idiot you know like she just put her hand there you know it's not about you know you should do this or you should do that

[85:00]

or you know and then after a while I got incredibly you know my breath started calming down and there became very smooth and then uh you know my body got very unsolid pretty soon there was no boundaries you know there's no shape there was just this massive heat and it's all it's all with and that's exactly what you're saying that's a companion and that's not a companion who's doing anything or telling you what you're supposed to do it's just somebody who's there and years um years later Suzuki Roshi sometimes used to come around and he'd put his hands on my shoulder and you know lots of times people you know oh here let me loosen up your shoulders you're kind of uptight you know here I'll fix this for you and a lot of times when somebody's trying to fix something for you you know it makes you nervous you know you have to you feel like what are they doing to me and you know and and sometimes

[86:00]

it's helpful and you especially notice it when they stop wow what a relief and you feel better but it's hard to know but anyway and I asked him about this what are you doing he said I'm not doing anything it's just a way for us to be together but I noticed the same thing when he did that you know within a few breaths and it was so it was so nice it was so refreshing and I felt so you know and what it is is if somebody can when he could he's just and you know it turned out years later I went to a workshop with Marian Rosen you know Rosenwerk and she's doing the same thing we did an exercise we put her hand on people's shoulders for 15 minutes and she had exactly the same directions I didn't realize that us Zen people were just doing Rosenwerk all these years but she said all you do that you don't do anything you just have your hands there you just receive what's going on and you're not trying to do anything about it without wax yeah it's without wax

[87:00]

you know that you just let everything be and then that's terribly relaxing and then people and then afterwards I even had my arms on a woman's shoulders and she said it had made her kind of nervous because you know a man doesn't usually touch her like that I think because she was gay but she said I was kind of scared but it ended up being really wonderful and sweet and so I confess that I only look like a man but anyway that's you know that kind of mind is what we're cultivating you know by meditation practice just to be with something and allow it to be what it is and interestingly enough that is a kind of taming you know that is the taming of the Buddha because that tames beings that tames that awareness to be with something tames it's a very powerful tamer

[88:01]

in relation with the sincerity and no wax in this last four months I've been practicing when something comes up for me not to react immediately but just to observe if this was a seed that was planted by my parents or brothers or something and not react right away to you know feel the pain and where this is coming from and sometimes I've been able to see where this is coming from and therefore not react in a way that most of the time previously when I reacted I lost my temper and I went to a field of anger and was not positive for me but I've been dealing with where is the right balance between sincerity and really waiting to understand that

[89:07]

it could be that the other person might feel this and actually it happened to me recently that the other person said you know I would respect you much more and and I respect

[89:21]

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