My name is Dorothy Hunt and I'm the founder of the San Francisco Center for Meditation and Psychotherapy. I would like to welcome each and every one of you here this evening to this our final presentation of our Fall Speaker Series. Some of you may have been with us for John Welwood's talk and tonight we are really delighted to have Ed Brown with us and I will give you a more official introduction in a moment. Since many of you never heard of the San Francisco Center for Meditation and Psychotherapy before receiving a flyer for this speaker series, I thought I would just spend a minute or two telling you a little bit about the Center. We opened in January of 1993 so we're a relatively new association of individual psychotherapists who share an interest in the practice of meditation and also a real commitment to exploring the interrelationship between spirituality and psychotherapy. To this end we offer

[01:00]

workshops, speaker series such as these, groups that focus on somehow the interface between psychology and spirituality. I wanted to introduce my colleagues to you briefly. Joan is back there. Is Brandy available? Anyway, Joan Fenold is one of our group and Brandy Engel. Dr. Robert Turner is ill tonight and couldn't be with us but we would like to thank you two for and Robert too actually because he helped with the food but they provided the beautiful food for the reception. So thank you very much. You can clap when you've eaten it, you'll see. Right, right. I want to just call your attention to a couple of things that are ongoing at the Center. One is the meditation group for psychotherapists. If

[02:02]

any of you here are therapists we would like to invite you to come the fourth Sunday of each month from 1030 a.m. to 12 noon. We have about a 30 to 40 minute period of sitting followed by either a discussion or sometimes we have a speaker. Ed Brown was one of our speakers this past August and he did a wonderful Dharma talk for us. We have several people scheduled for next year so I would invite you to come. It's free, open to any spiritual tradition. Just bring your own cushion. Joan is doing a series of groups both in Berkeley and San Francisco on cultivating sacredness in everyday life. If you're interested pick up a flyer that's one of these pink ones. And I also wanted to draw your attention to a workshop that I will be coordinating and helping to facilitate called Coming Home to the Soul and that's this sheet. This is going to be a 14-week experiential workshop looking at different faces of the soul through

[03:07]

the use of myth, meditation, dance, ritual, mandala drawing, mask making, all kinds of things. And helping to facilitate that is Ed Brown who's going to be doing one workshop for us and also Anna Halperin who's a dancer and the co-founder of the Tamalpa Institute. This workshop will end with a weekend residential retreat at Green Gulch Farm the weekend of April 8th to the 10th and Ed will be available for us that weekend as well to help give meditation instruction and give a talk in preparation for the celebration of the Buddha's birthday which will be April 10th. So I invite you to get information about that if you're interested. I want to tell you a little bit about how how I know Ed Brown. He's a relatively new friend of mine but I hope not not a short time relationship.

[04:07]

Joan asked me this past year what would you think about inviting Ed Brown to come and do a Dharma talk for one of our meditation groups for psychotherapists and I said that'd be great. So what I really would love to do is take a cooking class from him. So she said well maybe we can ask him to do that too. So we did and he did both things and I have since taken many cooking classes from Ed Brown and I know him to be a wonderful and inspired cook. He takes great delight in food and sees food as a teacher. He's also a meditation instructor and I've had the privilege of being with him for one of his first Saturday all day sittings at Green Gulch Farm up in Marin County. He has been a student of Zen since 1965 and in 1971 he was ordained by Shinru Suzuki Roshi as a Zen

[05:09]

priest. As many of you know he's the author of the Tassajara cookbook, the Tassajara bread book, the Tassajara recipe book and co-author of the Greens cookbook and those books are available on the back table for purchase if you don't already have them and Ed will be happy to sign them I'm sure after his talk during our reception. One of the things that I think I value the most about Ed Brown is that he is a man who is deeply honest and in this world where so many so many people feel that they need to be somebody else they need to be doing something else they need to be feeling some other way than they are they are in the moment or be somewhere else. It's really refreshing and a wonderful teaching just to be around a person who is honest and able to be in the moment where he is so that's something I value very much about you. I thought before we

[06:15]

turned the meeting over to Ed to say whatever he is inspired to say about Zen psychotherapy and Radish teachings we would have a little time for quiet a little meditation time and we'll only spend about five minutes but at the center we have found that just about everything goes better if we take a little while just to quiet ourselves come into the present moment enjoy our breathing for a while. So I would invite you to find a comfortable place and just share this quiet space together for about five minutes. I will invite the bell to ring at the beginning and also at the end and when I do just remember to smile as Thich Nhat Hanh would say breathe deeply and remember your true self. Thich Nhat Hanh's True Self

[09:59]

Thich Nhat Hanh's True Self Thich Nhat Hanh's True Self Thich Nhat Hanh's True Self A Siddha yogi once said with each person that I greet I thank God for coming in this form and so I would like to say I thank God for coming in the form of each of you tonight and I thank God for coming in the form of Ed Brown. I welcome you, Ed, with great respect and love, and present to you, Ed Brown. Applause Good evening. I confess to a bit of nervousness tonight. I usually talk to people who are used to meditating a lot, or at least some. And so I feel like then I'm talking to an initiated audience, like they've all

[11:02]

sort of been through certain experiences, perhaps. And then to talk to therapists is a little intimidating, because I assume that, you know, many of you are involved in some way in, in psychotherapy, you know, business. Anyway, I was sitting here quietly. I was reminded of two stories. One is the story of a famous cook in China. And finally word got out to the emperor about this cook and how good his food was. So the emperor got himself invited to the cook's house for dinner. And they sat him down. They said, well, please have a seat. Relax. Just like, you know, Dorothy did. Enjoy your breath and take it easy. And, you know, we'll, we'll serve you some food in a while. And half hour went by and he got a little sort of nervous, wondering where the food was. And more time passed. And finally

[12:07]

after about two hours, they brought him a little bowl of white rice. And after he ate the rice, with his two hour sort of wait to get ready for it, he found it really quite good. So this is one school of thought on how to be a good cook. You see, you have to not serve people the peanuts and the dips and chips and all that stuff, but to make them hungry. And the best thing is like, take them for a walk in the woods, you know, before dinner. Then they think, and they get back from that and they think, oh, this food is so good. It worked up a bit of an appetite. The other story I was thinking of, you know, I'm not always, I'm not an especially good meditator. I've just stayed with it, right? So the other thing I thought of while we were sitting here is the, you know, Alan Watts used to say, it really helps just as Dorothy said, to sit quietly really makes a difference. And he said, especially before making love, you should sit quietly

[13:10]

for half an hour first. You'll find it improves things tremendously. Anyway, so much for my period of silence, you know, my five minutes. So anyway, I've been doing meditation for more than 28 years now. And I've done a little therapy along the way too. Therapy seems to have its uses. I can't, you know, meditation may have its uses too. I'm not sure. But anyway, I'm going to tell you some stories tonight and, you know, we'll think about it, right? I mean, that's what we're saying, right? Food for thought. So we'll think about it. One of the stories I want to tell you about is a story of a layman who went to see the Buddha. And this was somebody, you know, he had to travel for some time in some ways to get to see the Buddha. And so he walked for, you know, more than a week.

[14:16]

He'd heard about what a great spiritual teacher the Buddha was. And he finally got to where the Buddha was staying and he had brought along some fruits and various offerings. And he finally got his chance to see the Buddha and he made his offerings and he bowed and he did all the, he had the instruction and all the proper greetings. And then finally he could sit down and the Buddha said, well, what can I do for you? He said, you know, life is really hard and I'm a farmer and the crops don't always come in. Sometimes there's drought or there's flood. Sometimes there's fires and sometimes there's storms. And so we're quite poor sometimes and it's very hard. I don't always know what to do and I get discouraged and I worry and I get afraid that I won't be able to manage and take care of my family.

[15:18]

And I have a wonderful wife but, you know, sometimes she gets on my nerves and I get angry and irritated and I can't stand the sight of her. And sometimes I even yell at her. And I have some kids and they're really great kids but, you know, I can't help myself sometimes. I hit them, you know, I get mad at them, I get annoyed. You know, they don't always do what I tell them to. They seem to have like a mind of their own. Funny thing. So I'm wondering if you have some advice for me. I would like very much some advice. I don't know what to do. Sometimes I'm just at my wits end. Is there some teaching you can give me? And the Buddha replied, well, you know, everybody in this world has 83 problems. And as soon as you get rid of any one of them, another one will take its place so you'll always have 83.

[16:21]

Isn't there some practice I could do to take care of some of these problems? And the Buddha said, no. And the lay person said, but I see all these people practicing with you and they're doing all these spiritual practices and doing trances and having enlightenments and awakenings and realizations and these practices that you give people must be good for something. And the Buddha said, well, sometimes they help someone with the 84th problem. So, of course the layman wondered, as you might be wondering, what is the 84th problem? And the Buddha said, the 84th problem is you don't want to have any problems at all. So this sort of sounds familiar, right?

[17:28]

And this is one of our big problems, right? We don't want to have any problems. And we don't want to be getting angry and annoyed and irritated and we don't want to be yelling at people. I thought it would be nice to meditate this stuff away. Not have to actually talk to somebody and tell them I was angry or that sort of thing. I thought, well, I'll just meditate it and that will take care of it. Anyway, that didn't work very well. But I like this story, you know, because it is very much a question of like, do I really have to put up with all this stuff? I mean, isn't there some way, you know, whether it's spiritual or psychological or therapy, isn't there some way where I just wouldn't have to deal with all this stuff that keeps happening? Isn't there some secret? Please tell me. And then, you know, figure you're a therapist and you told people what the Buddha told people.

[18:33]

I'm sorry, I can't help you. Then pretty soon, oh, well, if you can't help me, I guess I'll go see someone else. But this story somehow also reminds me of, it sort of brings up the question implicitly, what is it we really want? And in some sense, what the story is saying, what we really want is to be willing to have problems and to be willing to live our life with the things that come along and deal with them and wrestle with what comes up. And that we actually want to be willing to do that rather than not wanting to do that. As the Buddha says, your problem is you don't want to have any problems. But this also reminds me then of a poem by Kabir.

[19:37]

The first part of the poem, I'm going to tell you the first part of the poem. The guest is inside you and inside me. The sprout lies hidden within the seed. None of us has gotten very far. Set aside your arrogance then and take a look around inside. The blue sky extends further and further. The daily sense of failure comes to an end. The damage I have done to myself fades away. A million suns come forward with light when I sit firmly in that place. Do you understand that place? That place where all the problems are? And when you sit firmly there, the damage goes away. And the daily sense of failure goes away because the failure is the failure to get somewhere else where you wouldn't have to be with all this stuff. And you tried and tried to get somewhere else so you wouldn't have to deal with all this stuff.

[20:39]

And then you failed and then you can be hard on yourself. And then you can damage yourself more by berating yourself for not being able to get a better life and be stuck in the same old stuff over again. Anyway, that's one of the ways I think about that poem. So there's something about that place, being in that place, being willing to be in that place where all this stuff happens where actually that brings some release. And therapy and Zen, I think, approach it a little differently. And traditionally, on the whole, therapy has been a little more of a talking cure and Zen is a little bit more of a body practice and a sitting, a meditation practice, a body practice. But actually both have a shared element which is what I really want to focus on tonight which is relationship. Relationship with the teacher, relationship with the therapist

[21:41]

and how powerful that can be. So to introduce this a little bit, I want to tell you, you know, just briefly give you a little kind of metaphor that's sometimes used in Zen of what the human situation is or our tendency which is where someone is living in a house and then you have a little dog that doesn't always behave itself and it barks and jumps up on people when they come in and it does these things that, you know, it kind of doesn't behave like in a civilized way. So sometimes, especially if company comes over, you put the dog down in the basement and then sometimes when you put the dog down in the basement it whines and it yowls. It's not very happy down there because it would like to be with you. But so sometimes to deal with this you just move up a story.

[22:43]

And so pretty soon you're living in the attic and you've forgotten all about the dog in the basement and up in the attic it's got a nice view but, you know, there's something not quite complete. It feels a little vacant and your life feels sometimes a little dry, not so juicy. And at some point, you know, we realize there's a dog down in the basement and whether it's through therapy or a meditation practice one makes some effort to re-own the dog, you know, to reconnect with the dog and to be transformed by finding out how to work with the dog. By this point, when you go down to the basement and you encounter the dog, by this point the dog may be kind of, you know, basically kind of lying there as if dead. This is what happens after all the complaints, after the whining and the yowling

[23:46]

and finally the dog gives up and just plays dead. So this is an advanced stage of, you know, whether you call it depression or whatever, you know, I don't know what you call these things, but it feels kind of quiet. And so then you go over to the dog and say, well, gee, I'm really sorry I abandoned you like this and stuffed you down here. And at this point, you know, the dog doesn't exactly trust you. Oh, so you want me to forgive you, is that it? And, you know, so basically the dog, you know, doesn't want to have anything to do with you. But if you persist, then the dog might start to snarl. And, you know, if you're going to start to have a relationship with the stuff in the basement, you kind of have to be willing to spend quite a good deal of time generally getting to be friends again with the dog

[24:47]

and getting to so that the dog will trust you again. Because we spend a lot of time stuffing the dog down in the basement, so then we're going to have to spend a lot of time regaining a kind of trust and overcoming our own tendency to put the part of, you know, the beast, the part of ourself in the basement away from where people can see it, right? So this is going to be a lot of work to get, you know, the dog back and to be able to have the dog in the room with you. And, of course, you know, after you get past the depression and the playing dead and the snarling and the anger and the fear and the distrust and there's a whole lot of things, at some point, you know, your dog is also a lot of creativity and joyfulness and liveliness and energy that you didn't have anymore, right? So the whole package goes together, right? I mean, you can't just get rid of the beastly stuff and figure, like, you'll save the good stuff for yourself, right?

[25:48]

And so this is true whether you're in Zen or psychotherapy or any place, right? So this is a kind of metaphor. So I would tend to, you know, I tend to assume that both therapy and Zen are interested in reconnecting with the dog in the basement and bringing this dog into life and working out how we relate with whatever it is in the world. Anyway, this is, you know, one possible kind of metaphor. Well, so I mentioned, you know, wanting to talk to you about basic relationship. This, to me, is so fundamental and it's really pivotal. So I'm going to tell you a few stories about this.

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One is, I was at Tassajara at one point and a student said to Suzuki Roshi, why haven't you enlightened me yet? You could be in therapy, you know, and the patient or the client or, I don't know what you call these people nowadays. You know, could say to the therapist, well, why haven't you fixed me yet? You know, why haven't you helped me yet? And this is kind of interesting. I mean, to me, it's interesting because Suzuki Roshi's son was at Tassajara last summer and he came to there. Tassajara was a group of 16 abbots and he's the head of a temple in Japan and these were the 16 abbots of the sub-temples. So they all practiced a great deal of respect towards him, so much respect that they won't sit next to him in the meditation hall or in the dining room. And we're sort of wondering, doesn't he get lonely? But Americans, right,

[27:54]

what do we know about practicing respect? So Suzuki Roshi comes along and we say, well, how come you haven't enlightened me yet? And we sit right next to him and, you know, we're right in his face, as it were. You know, nowadays it's in your face. And so, why haven't you enlightened me yet? And he said, I'm making my best effort. It was very simple. It was a very simple, very sincere statement and it didn't have any kind of, you know, the kind of reactive quality. I guess you're not trying hard enough. Or, you know, where have you been, lady? Or, you know, whatever. Someone might say, I'm going to tell you a story in a minute of a different kind of response. But I like that. I thought, now that's interesting. And one of the interesting things to me about that is, you see, in this business of relationship and how pivotal it is. Because you can see in that the way that

[28:55]

that person, the person who asked the question, why haven't you enlightened me yet, is probably relating to their own body and mind that way. What have you done for me lately? Not very good. Couldn't you come up with something better? Something nicer to see? Some more powerful experience? Excuse me, but you're not doing enough for me. Couldn't you be a little calmer? And this is a, you know, this person is in effect, you know, taking some part of themself, body and mind and all this experience and all these 83 problems and stuffing them down in the basement. I don't think you're helping me enough. And this person is being very critical towards their own experience and then it's the same way, then of course it's the same relationship with Suzuki Roshi, right? That's what we do. So this person is relating to Suzuki Roshi and then he's changing, you know, the basic relationship. I'm making my best effort. And if the person took that and turned it around, they could experience their own body and mind.

[29:58]

And when they say to their own body and mind, you're not doing enough for me. You know, you could be coming up with really enlightening, dazzling experiences. You know, could you get it together? Or like, would you calm down or would you stop getting so upset? What's your problem? You know, I don't like that. And they could start hearing perhaps their body and mind and their feelings and their thoughts and all these things that are coming up saying, I'm making my best effort. I'm making my best effort. I'm making my best effort. So this is, you know, you can hear a different voice there. You know. And sometimes that shifts things. Okay. So we hear a lot about, in Zen, about, you know, that Zen is meditation. But, you know, really pivotal in the Zen tradition is this relationship, teacher and student. And at best, it works something like this. Something can shift. Okay. Another example of this, in a different way, and you know, it's also true, like there's good and bad Zen

[30:59]

and there's good and bad therapy. And, you know, you can run into whatever you run into wherever you run into, right? There's no guarantees. Right. Because I had a teacher and I said to one of my teachers, Zen teachers one time, I have a really difficult time talking to you. I really feel kind of scared and intimidated talking to you. And he said, well, I'm really sorry. But nobody else at Zen Center has that problem. So it must be your problem. Isn't that clever? And then if I turn that around and I, you know, and so my own body and mind saying to me, I really have a difficult time telling you, talking to you. My dog in the basement is going, I have a difficult time talking with you or sharing anything with you. And then the teaching I'm given is,

[32:00]

well, I guess that's your problem, isn't it? You know, I can say that back to my body and mind. I guess that's your problem. It's not mine. It's not like I'm not receptive or anything. It's not like, you know, nobody else has that problem. So to me, that's not a very good, you know, that's a whole different relationship, right? It's a whole different relationship. And relationships often have this kind of power differential, right? I have it together. You don't. I understand things. You know, you don't. I'm not hard to talk to. You have a difficult time talking. And then, you know, the, you know, and then the one person has it together and the other person doesn't. And if it doesn't shift, if it always stays like that, how does either person ever change? And both people have to change. Just as if you want to get the dog out of the basement,

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the person who's been living in the attic has to change so that the dog will meet that person. The dog changes, the person in the attic changes. Right? You know, five years after I first said that to this particular teacher, I said, gee, it doesn't look like I'm the only person who has this problem. I don't understand why. It took me four or five years. I was so intimidated by that answer. It took me four or five years to go back and say, excuse me, but I don't think I'm the only person who has that problem. And he said, well, you're the only one of the senior students who has that problem. That's what I meant. That's what I meant. And if you want to know, you see, why that person isn't Abbot of Zen Center anymore, it's because everybody had that problem. You know? Anyway. I don't usually talk about this, but to me it fits in so well with, you know,

[34:03]

the nature of what I want to talk about tonight. One other example, you know, in a therapeutic setting, I have a friend who for a long time had problems with, you know, overeating. And for a while she was seeing a therapist. And finally after two years of working with this therapist, the therapist one day said to her, I'm not going to work with you anymore. You have too much resistance. Now that may be true in a certain sense, but it's not, you know, from my point of view, the therapist is not owning their own stuff as well as, you know, talking about the other person. So to me it would be just as accurate or probably more useful to say, I'm not going to work with you anymore. I haven't yet found a way to work with you that's satisfying for me and that I feel good about. And you may or may not have too much resistance.

[35:06]

Who knows? You know, but the fact is I haven't found a way that works for me. And I don't know, you know, far be it from me to speak for you and what your experience is. Do you feel like it's been working for you? You know? And, you know, you don't try to talk for somebody else. Put words in somebody else's mouth and tell them, you know, whatever, anyway. So I have kind of a, you know, to me I have a certain, you know, sort of take in all this. And for me it's been very useful to have, both in Zen and in therapy, certain situations, somebody who seems to be able to, that I seem to be able to talk to. Somebody can talk to me. And it's not so obvious who's the boss. You know? And who's in the basement and who's in the attic. You know? And it's clear that the person that I'm talking with is not trying to keep me in the basement so that they can go on living in the attic.

[36:08]

You know, or whatever, right? And the basic way in which I relate with the world changes. Because one way I can relate to the world is you're going to do what I tell you, aren't you? And if you don't, I'm going to get angry. Or I'm going to get sad. Or I'm going to be, you know, whatever. And so really you should do what I tell you or you're going to have to suffer these consequences. Or, you know, I might take the approach of I'll do whatever you say. You know, that's sort of the other side. And I'll try to be a good person. I'm going to try to be a good patient. But then the therapist is also trying to be a good therapist. But, you know, they're not exactly... But anyway, you know, so it's wonderful, you know. But we tend to have some basic way that we relate with the world. And when it comes... And when it contacts with somebody else in relationship, it can change. When a parent always tries to be the parent

[37:12]

and the child is always the child, then how does the child ever understand about being a parent? And sometimes when the parent falls apart and the child has to play the parent, now they have a chance to grow up. Because it can switch roles. Everybody knows who the mother is, who the daughter is, who the mother is, you know, who the son is. And you can switch roles and suddenly the kids are taking care of the parents. If you overdo it, you know, we all know about that, you know, with alcoholic parents, and the child ends up being only the parent and the adult's only the child, then that ends up being confusing, right? So it seems the most healthy thing is this relationship which can shift back and forth. In Suzuki Roshi, so my teacher used to say, sometimes the teacher is the student, sometimes the student is the teacher. Sometimes the teacher bows to the student, sometimes the student bows to the teacher. Okay. One more example of this.

[38:12]

I was at Tassajara a couple of years ago and during the Seshina, Week of Intensive Meditation, the abbot was giving a talk and he mentioned somebody who wanted to be ordained as a priest had talked to him, and when he asked them why, the person said something. I can't remember the exact thing, but, you know, it was something like, say she said, well, I want to surrender to the Dharma. You know, I don't know what she said, but then the teacher in his lecture sort of made fun of her. He said, you know, I don't like that word surrendering to the Dharma. I don't like that expression. To me it feels like this, you know, like it feels like you're giving up something or, you know, it feels some way. And then later on at the end of Seshina we have a ceremony where each person comes up and asks a question. And the abbot publicly responds to each question. And the person, who we didn't know who it was, but the person who had been the object

[39:15]

of this public, you know, disclosure during lecture, went up in front and she said, when I say surrender, this is what I mean. Can we use my language and not just yours? She really stood up for herself, you know. And he got down off of his seat and bowed down to the floor to her. It was so touching. You know, it was a simple way to say, of course, we can use your language and what you mean by those words. And that's so affirming, you know, compared to, if you have trouble talking to me, nobody else has that problem. It must be yours. Well, I'm going to tell you a couple,

[40:19]

I'm going to tell you a Zen story now. I think, lately, one of the ways I think about Zen is I've been talking about the dog in the basement, but I also sort of think just to re-own and re-inhabit your body and mind. You know, to live in that place where the 83 problems are and be willing to be there and to stand your ground there. To me, this is so powerful. Rather than trying to set up a nice little attic someplace or a nice little nest someplace where these things don't get to you anymore, stay away. And this is the basic kind of metaphor, of course, for concentration or wholeness. Basic metaphor is actually we make these separations. And as soon as you make a boundary state, you know, as soon as you have a border, the stuff I'm willing to have inside the border and the stuff I want to keep out of the border, then, if you have a border, you have to have defenses, right? You have to have guards.

[41:20]

You have to be alert. Or something might get in. And then when it does, you get angry. You can be afraid, because you have a border. And the idea, the metaphor in meditation is whatever comes, comes. And let it come. But, you know, the safety in that is you need a container or a place to do that called a meditation hall, where the security is provided. In other words, there's not really people coming into the meditation hall with machine guns that you have to worry about. Understand? So theoretically, it's safe enough for you to be in the meditation hall and let whatever comes, come. And not worry about maintaining the borders in your own being, what you're willing to experience and what you want to keep in the basement. But it takes a long time. It's amazing. Okay, here's a story for you. A very famous Zen teacher in China, Lin Chi, in Japanese, he's known as Rinzai. He's the founder of the Rinzai School of Zen,

[42:23]

which is, you know, the Koan school in Zen. Rinzai studied with a teacher named Wang Bo. Wang Bo apparently was a very large man. And Rinzai went to study with him and joined the meditation community. And after a couple of years, he'd never been to see the teacher. And the head monk said to him one day, you really ought to go and talk to the master. You haven't done that yet. And so he said, okay. And he went to the master and he said, what's the true meaning of Buddhism? And the master picked up a stick and walloped him. Rinzai went away and wondered, what was my mistake? How come he doesn't want to tell me? What's his problem? So he went to see the head monk. And he said, you know, I went and I asked him this, you know, question seemed reasonable to me.

[43:26]

What's the real meaning of Buddhism? And he hit me. And the head monk said, well, try it again. So, of course, the same thing, right? He goes in, asks the question again, gets hit again. Goes out, goes to see the head monk. Says, try it again. He tries it a third time. Gets hit again. Goes back to the head monk. He says, I've had it. I think, you know, we're not connecting. I think, karmically, we're not connecting. I think I'm going to go to someplace else and study somewhere else. I'm just, this is not, I'm not getting this. So the head monk then went back to Rinzai's teacher, Wang Bo, and said, well, this person, when this person comes to say goodbye to you, I hope, you know, you understand that I think he's a really talented and capable person and someone of real understanding or capacity, potential. I hope you'll help him out when he comes to say goodbye. So Rinzai came to say goodbye, and his teacher said,

[44:34]

oh, you're leaving, huh? He said, well, why don't you go see the teacher down the road named Da Yu? So Rinzai said, OK. So he left his monastery and traveled, apparently wasn't so far away to this other monastery with this other teacher, Da Yu. Went in, had a little interview with Da Yu, and Da Yu says, where are you from? This, if you know Zen, is like, it's not just, you could answer anything you want in this case. But he said, I come from Wang Bo's place. I mean, this is a question like, where are you from? It's sort of like, well, where are you at, man? And if you want to get, you know, sort of philosophical or deep or whatever, you know, you could try giving some kind of more metaphysical answer. When I try to look for that place, I can't really find it. You know, something like that. But anyway, he said, I come from Wang Bo's. And he said, well, what are you doing here?

[45:35]

So he told him the story of what happened. And I went to see the master, and I got hit three times. And Da Yu heard the whole story, and he said, boy, was your teacher, Wang Bo, acting with exceedingly grandmotherly kindness. And Rinzai, with that statement, something in Rinzai clicked. You know, and he had a kind of awakening. And he said, oh, there's not much to Wang Bo's Zen after all. And Da Yu said, just a minute. You were here, you came in here a minute ago, whining away about what was your problem, and now you're saying there's not much to your teacher's Zen after all. What did you see? Tell me. And Rinzai poked him in the ribs three times with his fist. It's a little bit like, don't you get it? You know? And Da Yu pushed him away and said, get out of here. This has got nothing to do with me. Go back to your teacher.

[46:36]

So he goes back to Wang Bo. And Wang Bo says, haven't you come back too soon? And Rinzai says, no, I haven't, as a matter of fact. And his teacher says, well, what happened? So he tells his teacher the story of what happened. And his teacher said, that old rascal Da Yu, the next time I see him, I'll have to give him blows. And Rinzai said, why wait? Let me give them to you. And hauled up and whacked his teacher, walloped his teacher. And then the teacher called to the attendant and said, send this madman to the meditation hall. Give him a seat. Give him back his seat. Okay, so this is a story about somebody re-inhabiting their body and mind. There's not much to the teaching of Zen.

[47:38]

Everybody already has it. You already experience things. You've got colors, sounds, smells, taste, touch, feelings, emotions, thoughts. Sometimes things work out pretty well, sometimes they don't. Isn't that the way it is? 83 problems? Is there some secret here? No, you just want to know, well, can't we get it to work better? Does it have to be so hard? Gee, I don't think I like this. Well, yeah, okay, well, fine. Yeah, it's hard and doesn't always work so well. So anyway, Rinzai Linchi, somehow he owned up to like, well, I know as well as anyone. I can give out blows. And then sometimes, of course, people adopt this sort of attitude. Anyway, right? I'll just give out the blows. Anyway, so it's a little, who knows who has awakening and who doesn't.

[48:41]

Some people go around like they really know what they're doing and they feel like they own their own stuff and stuff, but you find out actually they don't, you know, after a while. So sometimes it takes relating over time, right? Anyway, I don't know if this story makes any sense to you, but I kind of like it. Okay. You know, it's a little bit like this teacher saying, you asked me about the real meaning of Buddhism. You already have it. You already know it. You already are it. You know, whack. And I know from my experience, I've gotten whacked a lot, you know, over the years. And it's pretty nice. You know, when you get whacked like that, everything disappears for a moment. You know, all the most important things that were on your mind, all those really precious thoughts and all those feelings and all those things that you were like so preoccupied with, boy, are they gone in a flash when you get hit. And then there you are,

[49:42]

you know, experiencing this moment, you know, this place, you know, for better, for worse, for sickness or health, you know. Well, I'm going to tell you, you know, another little story here. I don't want to keep you too long, you know, but what the heck. I like this story from Alice Miller. Do you know this story about the grandmother and the three-year-old? This woman says, a woman wrote or called or told this story to Alice Miller, so she put it in one of her books. And the story is, this woman decided to take her three-year-old to stay with grandmother for the weekend. She had a little trepidation about this because she knew her mother was really big on manners because she'd grown up, you know, and her mother had made sure, like, she was really well-mannered. But she also knew her mother,

[50:49]

the child's grandmother, loved the little boy very much and would read him stories at night. She thought it should work out okay. She came back after the end of the weekend, picked up her three-year-old. He gets in the car and he says, I don't want to go to grandmother's anymore. She hurt me. So then the mother wonders what happened. Here's, you know, it's very easy to put children in the basement, isn't it? Here's a child who got put in the basement, you know, kind of abruptly. And, of course, the child didn't know what happened or how he ended up in the basement, but he got there. So the mother sorted this out. She called up her mother and she talked to her son. She got the story. So it turned out that her mother, sure enough, had wanted the little boy to have good manners. And so what had happened was

[51:50]

when they were having dessert, they had dinner. They'll need to do that. And the grandmother reached out and put her hand on his and said, you have to ask the others if it's okay. And he looked around and he said, where are the others? Doesn't that sound like Rinzai owning it?

[52:54]

Owning his own body and mind? Here's somebody who's, you know, even for three years old, in his own way, he's really present. He looks around and he says, well, where are they? And the grandmother says, oh, and then, so when she sees, she says, where are the others? And this is so upsetting to me. He starts to cry because he doesn't understand it, you know, at three years old. And then he even threw a little tantrum. He threw down his spoon and he started throwing a tantrum and the grandmother tried to soothe him and console him. And after a while, after he calmed down, and he said, you hurt me. I don't like you. Why did you? And then he said, I want to go, I want to go home to my mommy. And then after a while, he said, well, why did you do that?

[53:56]

And I know how to help myself. Yes, said my mother, but you must first ask whether you may. Why? Why? Said Daniel. Because you must learn good manners. What for? Asked Daniel. Because one needs them, replied my mother. Daniel said quite calmly, I don't need them. With mommy, when I, I can eat if I'm hungry. If you know your Zen, you know that, you know, sometimes one of the answers to what is the true meaning of Zen that Rinzai asked is, when hungry, eat, and when tired, sleep. Can you figure it out? You know, when you're tired, you can sleep.

[55:02]

When you're hungry, you can eat. One of the interesting things to me about this story is not just the story. Now, I read this story in an eye-wider way related to the three-year-old. Now, that's where I'm at, okay? I spend a lot of time being three years old. And it's really hard. You know, I don't get a lot of sympathy. People on the whole would like me to be a little more grown up. And so I right away related to the three-year-old. And I read this, I told this story, I read this story at one of my one-day retreats. I give a few readings at the beginning of the day and I try to have something a little provocative, you know, perhaps. And during questions later on in the day, of course, people were saying to me, oh, boy, when you read that story, I related to the grandmother right away. Kids need to have good manners. I was so surprised. And then other people started saying that. Yeah, let's tame that dog.

[56:02]

And then people were talking about all kinds of examples of, you know, my 14-year-old stepson and, you know, what a beast he is and, you know, this and that. And boy, you know, we need to teach these kids manners. And, you know, there's some truth to that, okay? But it was also interesting, finally, because one of the things Alice Miller says is people don't want to, you know, people want to protect the innocence of the parents. They don't want to admit that maybe the parents did something wrong. Maybe the grandmother did something wrong. Maybe as a parent they're doing something wrong. So on the whole, she says, you know, and she gives some examples in her book, the TV station cancels at the last minute, waters down or cancels, you know, the show that's going to present her ideas. The magazine, you know, changes her article because some editor finally reads about this and says, oh my God, people aren't going to be able to stand to hear this stuff, that maybe the parents, you know, don't understand how to relate to three-year-olds.

[57:07]

So I thought this was interesting and, you know, so I had to sort of realize, I realized that, you know, my immediately identifying with the three-year-old wasn't quite right and actually, you know, one, practically speaking, one needs to identify equally with the grandmother and the three-year-old. Identify equally with the person in the attic and the dog in the basement and not side with one or the other. And siding with one or the other is a big problem. You know, then you're setting up one part against another. This is why you have, we have inside us, you know, a big fight going on because we're siding with one side and the idea of a meditation space or to me a good therapy is setting up a space where you're not taking sides and everybody can be there and we can talk to each other about what we'd like to see and, you know, if the grandmother said, you know, I would really appreciate it if you asked. That's different than saying you must. Do it the way I tell you

[58:13]

and there's some implicit threat there or I'm not going to love you anymore or I'm going to reject you. So part of it is just in the language and in the vocabulary, right? Later on I got a letter from a woman and she said, when you first talked, you first read that story, I immediately related to the three-year-old. I started crying. And then interestingly enough the next thing she said was, we were in the meditation hall there and I started getting really upset at those people who have on those nylon jackets and were fidgeting and it makes that terrible noise. And then there were those people who weren't following the Zendo etiquette and I wanted to correct them. Doesn't that sound like the grandmother, for goodness sakes? And I think she noticed, you know, something about the grandmother there and that she's both the three-year-old and the grandmother. And then she said, after a while, thank goodness,

[59:14]

I hit on a new strategy. It was like I was pleasantly anonymous riding a train in a foreign land. You know, when you go in a foreign country, you know, when you're on the train, you don't worry about correcting those people. You sort of think, what interesting customs they have. So she relaxed, you know, a little bit, you know, let go of her grandmother a bit. You know, her grandmother, who's kind of quick to want to correct everybody. And also, of course, if the grandmother wants to correct everybody, then there's some part of her that feels like, she said, you know, when she was feeling, what she said was, that when she wanted to correct those other people, I felt claustrophobic. Makes sense, right?

[60:15]

Because here she is correcting all those people in her mind and some part of her feels corrected. You know, like, boy, I better be careful what I do. It's kind of small in here. This is kind of tight. I better watch my stuff. Okay. Anyway, I thought this, I like that story a lot because it brings up this sort of sense of, you know, it's not to say that the grandmother is wrong or the child is wrong or that, you know, that one of them is right. They really need to be able to understand and respect and appreciate one another and be able to trust each other. You know? And partly I think that respect and understanding and trust comes from having it happen in a real relationship in the world. Whether it's your Zen teacher or your therapist or your partner

[61:16]

or, you know, somewhere, when you have this relationship with someone in the world, then it helps you change your own inner relationship with yourself. Okay? I think so. So this is to say, you know, Dogen Zenji, who's a Japanese, well-known Japanese Zen teacher, said, you should express yourself. You get into an argument, you should express yourself freely, but don't try to defeat the other person. Then you can correct a, you know, you can correct a three-year-old, but you're not trying to defeat the three-year-old. You're a little more careful about how you correct. Well, I'm going to tell you about radishes now. Okay. This is another example of,

[62:27]

well, partly this is in the context, perhaps, of a, you know, sometimes there's the kind of saying, for instance, that all the teachings of the Buddhas and ancestors are everyday rice and tea. And this everyday rice and tea has been transmitted to us so that we have it today, rice and tea, you know, everyday moments. And someone asked, is there anything sort of beyond this? Is there anything beyond everyday rice and tea, the teaching of this moment? Is there anything else? Isn't there something kind of special that we could get? Why haven't you given it to me yet, we might say to our body and mind.

[63:30]

Or we might say, you're not giving me the one I asked for, so you can go to the basement. So I wanted to talk to you about, you know, radishes. And is this radishes? Is this, you know, everyday rice and tea? Is this everyday life? Or is it something special? And what, you know, what is it that makes something blessed or special? And what is it that makes it kind of everyday? So this for me came up, the radishes came up. I went, I was, I do cooking classes sometimes in Berkeley. And people's house I cook at said, well, they wanted me to meet their friend Robert, who's another cook. Robert has a restaurant here in San Francisco on Guerrero, I guess. It's called Le Tru. My daughter lived in France for many years and we went there one night and she said she didn't get it, no, Le Tru,

[64:34]

because it means the hole. And so Robert explained it to us. It's the hole in the wall restaurant. Robert has a little bit of a, you know, this kind of dry humor, which is kind of fun. So the night we wanted to get together with Robert, his restaurant was closed. We were all going to go there for dinner. And he said, no, why don't you come to my house for dinner? I was kind of pleased because it's nice, you know, that somebody who cooks all the time is still willing to invite you to their house and cook for you, you know. So I thought that's pretty sweet. So, and then of course, I wanted to kind of, you know, have a, make a favorable impression if possible. So, speaking of favorable impressions, the first time I met Suzuki Roshi, I had gone to the Zen center. I didn't know what I was doing and went into meditation hall, sat down. And afterwards we used to file out of the room, single file, and then each of us would bow to Suzuki Roshi and he would bow to us. And this was the first time I had met,

[65:37]

you know, a Zen master. So of course, you know, I was, and I was 20 years old and I thought, what's he going to think of me? I wonder if he's going to like me. I wonder if he'll be impressed with me or wonder what he thinks of me. And I bowed and he bowed and he didn't seem to think anything of me at all, one way or another. It was uncanny. It was a little off-putting. But you know, sometimes when people sort of don't seem to think anything of you, one way or another, you don't have the feeling like they're letting you in. It's sort of like they think so little of you, that they're not even going to acknowledge you. Or they're not going to think anything of you one way or another. That's because they're not even like really taking you in. And in this case, I felt completely received and taken in. So that was unusual, you know, to feel so received and yet

[66:38]

didn't seem to matter to him one way or another, you know, what kind of person I was. And there was no indication of what kind of person he thought I was. And over time, this happened, you know, over and over again. And I felt completely received and I felt like he could see right through me. I felt like I couldn't hide anything from him and it didn't matter in the slightest. That's unusual. You know, when you meet somebody like that. Because some people you meet them, and whether it's a therapist or whoever, and you feel like, boy, I wouldn't want these, you know, these people aren't going to want to know about some of this stuff I want to talk to them about. You know, but with Suzuki Roshi, I never worried. Didn't seem to be a problem. And so in a sense, you know, I don't know. And it's true with therapists too, right? The more you've worked through your own stuff, then the more stuff you can receive from other people, right? And when you haven't worked through your own stuff,

[67:42]

then you go like, excuse me, don't tell me anything that's going to bring up my own stuff for me. But anyway, I wanted to make a favorable impression on Robert. I mean, you know, 25, 28 years, 30 years of Zen practice, and I'm still trying to make good impressions, right? Okay. Still haven't gotten over it, right? So I got two 10-year-old bottles of California wine from my little wine cellar. You know, it's stuff that I keep back by the bathroom, you know, in the little cooler part of the house. And I took those with me, and then we got to his house, and Patty and I went inside, and it was kind of dark outside, and then it was wonderfully warm and light in his house, and I gave him the wine, and he said, I knew though, you know, that I wasn't going to count on drinking these two 10-year-old wines. You know, I like to give people. I know enough to, like, understand

[68:42]

that they may already have plans for the evening and wines that they want to serve. And he gestured to the mantelpiece, and he said, well, we won't be having these wines you brought tonight. I have these two 20-year-old Bordeauxs that we're having. So I thought, well, this is nice. And then I liked Robert right away. He made a good impression on me. And so then we went and sat down. I know he has a little room up in his kitchen there with a little low table, and there were all these radishes there. And it turned out they were there for us to eat. And I thought, gee, those look kind of nice. And they were all washed, and they were red,

[69:44]

and then some of them had those little white tips on the end of them, and some of them didn't. Some of them were round, and some of them were a little long. And then they still have their little rootlets on and little green stems, you know, which is interesting because, you know, lots of times cooks want to impress you so they do something to impress you. But to me, that ended up being the most, in a sense, touching and impressive thing he could do because it meant that he could appreciate radishes. And he could appreciate a radish being a radish. And he didn't have to try to improve on a radish and make it better or make it presentable, you know, fix it up. And usually, you know, and so you know when somebody does that, you also know, like, that's a cook. Somebody who's really a cook can appreciate a radish being a radish.

[70:46]

Because beginning cooks, you always want to do something to make it special, which will show people how skillful you are at what you do. So you try to improve on it, you know. And you try to make the radishes into little roses. With the radishes, there was a little dish of sweet butter and then little dishes of salt. So you could have your radish plain with butter, with salt, or with butter and salt. I found out later that this is traditional, actually. You know, this is something people do in France. My daughter said, oh, I've had that. But I was really stunned. I mean, these radishes are so beautiful. And, you know, to see them with this little rootlet and the stem, then you know, you know, like, they're like little jewels.

[71:47]

They're like, also, like, radishes, I don't know if you've ever looked at, like, a whole bunch of radishes, but they're so, like, like a three-year-old, perhaps. You know, they're so full of energy. And they don't mind, you know, like, being a radish. You know, and they're not thinking, like, why couldn't I be a little more grown up, like an eggplant or, you know, maybe I should be a cow or something, or, you know, really big. And they don't mind. And there's just these little things. And they don't mind being just these little things. And they're very sincere about just being a radish. And they go on being a radish. And even if you sit there, and I'm sort of going, you know, sometimes I might sort of think, radishes? I mean, you know, because people do that. Aren't we going to have any real food? I've heard people tell me, you know,

[72:49]

like, my parents came to visit, and they were wondering when they were going to have the real food. Aren't we going to have anything besides rabbit food? So they're, like, you know, they've obviously, these radishes have obviously been playing in the dirt. You can see it, you know. You can see it in the radish. Even though they're clean, you know, like, these radishes have been playing in the dirt. And then they're so, like, you know, round and plump. They're just full of it. You know, they're full of life. And anyway, we had radishes that night with some French sparkling cider. You know, that French sparkling cider that's slightly alcoholic? Like 3% or something? So, you know, the sugar in the, like in apple juice, you know, some of the sugar gets converted into alcohol, right?

[73:50]

So then it's not as sweet. It's a little bit bitter tasting. Slightly alcoholic. So it's quite refreshing with the crunchy radishness. You know, the mustardy quality of a radish. And, you know, to receive something like that, our capacity, you know, life is not out there. It's our capacity to receive a radish and to be blessed by radish. You know? So in this sense, you know, we may not have even, sometimes, I haven't had such good relations. Most of the time. I don't have very good relationships with people. And a lot of my relationships end up being, like, with radishes. You know? And sometimes, you know, like for years, I wasn't really ready to relate to a human being, I don't think. You know, so I studied with radishes and, you know, other pieces of food. You know, like, what it is, you know, what kind of relationship. And to be able to receive a radish

[74:51]

and to be blessed by a radish. And the radish doesn't say to me, excuse me, but you're not being respectful enough of me and so I'm not going to let you eat me. It's interesting. There really are sort of like three-year-olds that way. You know? They let you take advantage of them that way and just pop them in your mouth. And you don't even have to be blessed. You know, you can put them in your mouth anyway. It's really amazing. So in that sense, also, they're quite forgiving. You know? And they'll become you in any case. And you take them in and you chew them, you know, and they will become you. And they will become your speech and your breath and your activity in the world, you know, comes from radishes. There was a few months ago, I read that article in the Chronicle. Maybe some of you saw it. It was just one of these little columns. And it was written by a woman who was studying at the culinary academy here in town.

[75:51]

And she was talking about, she was confessing to being a foodie. And so what you do if you're a foodie is you want to share with your brother and sister-in-law so she takes them to Star's and Mustard's. And finally they said, we're just going to go to the ball game tonight. Maybe we can get a hamburger without the goat cheese. And she went back to St. Louis for her aunt's funeral. And they went out to a bar with her sister. And she said to the waiter, she'd just been to all these brewing classes, you know, and so she said to the waiter, I'd like a bass ale. And her sister said, she means a Budweiser. And after the waitress left, her sister says to her, you know, that's what we drink here. This is St. Louis, you know. So she got the message. Then her parents came and her father after a while said, you know, I'm 65 years old.

[76:53]

I don't know what I'd like to eat by now. It's meat and potatoes. And besides that, it's only food. Which is, you know, it's a wonderful comment because, I mean, it's true, it's only food, but only food is also only human life. And again, it's the sort of thing of, if you, you know, in Zen, it's sort of the idea if you take care of your relationship with any one thing, take care of your relationship with food, a radish, you know, your life changes and you grow and you can receive a radish, you receive human life. If you respect a radish, it's like respecting, appreciating a radish is appreciating and respecting human life. It's appreciating and respecting your own body and mind, your own being. And each of us is also, at some point in our life, you know, we're nobody. We're not very competent. We're incompetent. We're childish.

[77:54]

We're a three-year-old. Can we appreciate and receive that, respect that, honor that, just as we do a radish, which is, you know, only food? Anyway, this, I think is, I would say is our ongoing kind of study in life, how to be with things and receive things and how to have a kind of warm-hearted and mutual relationship with things, things, people, our own thoughts and feelings, and, you know, our dog in the basement, the person who wants to stay up in the attic, the person who doesn't want an 84th problem. You know, how to be with those things and receive and be blessed by all those things the way that a radish, we can receive and be blessed by a radish. Okay, thank you. Applause So do you want to,

[79:01]

I'm willing to talk some more, but you could also just go and eat radishes if you want. I went on with my talk a little longer than I wanted to. I usually try to keep these things a little shorter. But anyway, thank you. If any of you need to leave or go anyplace or you've had enough of this or you just want to eat, I mean, help yourself. But I'm willing, if you have questions or comments, we have a little more time. Gee, why not broccoli? Laughter Didn't President Bush finally, or former President Bush go someplace in the Central Valley recently? Oh, he was at that big business convention in Bakersfield. Something like that. And he said, Gee, I've had some good broccoli since I've been here.

[80:02]

Something like that. I forget. What do you mean, say something about green beans? Laughter That's the sort of thing in Zen you say. We say radishes are red, green beans are green. Whoa. Is that deep or what? Laughter Yes? Oh, this isn't really a pouch. This is more like a bib. I mean, a pouch implies that you put stuff in here. The pouch is actually in here. This is the pouch. The pouch is actually inside here. That's a secret. Laughter That's the secret pouch. This is known as a raksu. It's a kind of miniaturized or informal form of a Buddhist robe, a Dharma robe. Because you know,

[81:06]

the full-size one, you put it over your left shoulder. It's like the saffron robe. Then the Zen tradition has a form of that robe that you wear over your other robes. Then there's also this sort of informal, smaller version so that you don't have to have this other robe. The way the robe is made is, I don't know if you can see it, but the idea is, traditionally, see, now we changed this, but traditionally, the Buddhists would get scrap material. So there's like stories in the sutras where they go to a layperson and they say, you know, could we have some material to make robes with? The layperson says, well, what do you do with the old robes when they wear out? Well, we cut them up and we sew them into new robes from the pieces. Then when those wear out, what do you do? Well, we make those into mops. They have this whole sort of sequence of what they do with the old things.

[82:06]

Then the layperson responds, well, if that's the way you take care of fabric, I'd be happy to give you some. They want to make sure that the people they're giving it to have some respect and actually take care of the stuff and they don't just run through the stuff and waste it. So traditionally, you get this used, this scraps of material and you dye it the same color. That's why they're bright orange robes. In India, traditionally, because that's a very strong dye. You can put it on the cloth and then you can dye it all the same. Then you would sew the scraps together. And so what we do now is buy a new piece of fabric and cut it into little pieces so we can sew them together according to the traditional way. This is what happens in an affluent culture. And then it's sewed together by a traditional pattern and the pattern is said to represent the fields. There's little fields. So this is like the fields of the community on the farm. So you have the rice fields.

[83:10]

And so this is considered to be like a field of blessedness. And then you receive this. We now sew these ourselves. You can also mail order them from Japan if any of you want one. Don't want to go to the trouble of making it. But when we receive ordination or initiation, if you take precepts, then you can, when you take the precepts, you receive from your teacher a Buddhist name. So then oftentimes that's written on the back. So my name is Juson Kainé, Longevity Mountain, Peaceful Sea. Sugiyoshi gave me that name. And then there's a little verse. It has the date also. His name, date. And then one tradition is it has this little verse here, which is what you say before you put on the robe. I can't remember how it goes now. I'm tongue-tied. Now I open Buddhist robe,

[84:12]

a field far beyond form and emptiness. I vow to wear the Tathagata's teaching and save all beings, or saving all beings. So before you put that on, you say to remind yourself to put on your robe. Yes. In the United States, or maybe Western culture in general, there's a big emphasis on self-improvement and changing things that are problematical. And I wonder how that is, or is it compatible with some of the ideas that Sugiyoshi has? Well, I think it's well and good to change things and improve. And the question is, how do you go about that? Are you doing it in an effective or useful way? Mostly we do it in a way

[85:13]

that doesn't work very well. For instance, Dogen says, discriminating thinking, judgment, judging, criticizing, complaining. You've been doing these things all your life. Have you gotten anywhere? But you want to keep on doing them. And that's the sort of thing I finally had to say to myself. There's some part of me, there's some voice that's going, you didn't do that very well, you're going to have to get it together, you're going to have to improve. And I finally said to that voice in me, over time, I kind of sat down one day and I said, excuse me, but the way that you talk to me is not helping me. And when you talk to me like that, I'm not really encouraged to change or improve. I really feel quite discouraged. I get quite depressed when you talk to me like that. And it doesn't help me get any better

[86:13]

in the way you'd like me to get better. Now, I want you to think about how to talk to me so that, you know, there'll be some real change around here. And amazingly enough, it worked. But that's an example of, you know, reversing the roles. Because somehow, the part of me that had been talked to like that, somehow got a voice. Because usually that's the part that doesn't have a voice. And just goes, yes, yes, yes, whatever you say, sir. Yes, I'll do it. I'll try. Oh, okay. And is kind of cowed and intimidated by, you know, whatever kind of, you know, criticism or, you know, self-improvement plan comes forward. Okay, I'll try. All right. Yes. That happened sometime after that. How did you work that out? How did I work that out with my teacher? Oh.

[87:15]

Well, with the teacher, I don't see that teacher anymore. But with yourself, you know, you know, I sometimes think, you know, if I had a choice about it, I wouldn't, you know, choose to be me as far as that goes. But, you know, I don't seem to have a choice about it. So, you know, we kind of have to hang in there with, you know, all of us. You know. With... Well, this is a kind of ongoing study. You know, how to... how to relate to whether it's the part of you that's talking like that or the person outside. And with a boss, as with a teacher, it's sometimes difficult. It's easier to do with yourself

[88:17]

at some point. I can say to myself, excuse me, but when you tell me, or, you know, usually I would tend to, if it's somebody else, I tend to... my tendency is to, like, wait a day or two until I've kind of calmed down and I'm not so upset about it. And I can talk about it kind of reasonably. So... and then I... you know, my tendency... but you kind of have to work on your relationship and study whether it fits in your relationship or, you know, if there's that kind of space for you in the relationship, which is to say, you know, when you said to me yesterday that was such a stupid idea, I felt really... I felt really discouraged. And it doesn't... and it's not the sort of thing that encourages me to come up with good ideas. I tend to think, like, you know, then I start censoring my own ideas trying to figure out if they're good ideas and pretty soon I don't have any ideas because none of them seem any good. But, you know, that's the sort of thing it's hard... it's often hard to say

[89:18]

to somebody, you know, to have that kind of, you know, directness. But it's not saying to the other person, I don't want you to say that to me. But, you know, there's other... and I think there's also other kinds of approaches. One of the things I noticed in working with people in that sense is whether it's the boss or somebody, you know, that I'm working... whether it's the boss or somebody who's working for me, I certainly try to cultivate a wide relationship with the person. So, you know, when I come... when you come to work in the morning, you say, good morning, how are you doing? How was your weekend? And you have a... and you try to have a conversation with people that's outside the... that's not just, you know, about work, so that your relationship is bigger than any problem you bring up. So that may be

[90:19]

like a first step is you want to be sure to have a relationship that if you bring up something and, you know, that... and if it doesn't sort of... and it somehow it doesn't mesh, you don't want that to spoil the whole relationship. Okay? So one example that interesting enough is John Madden when he was the football coach... now he's, you know, an analyst. But when he was the football coach of the Oakland Raiders, he said he made it his policy to talk to each player every day about something other than football. Because he wanted to have a bigger relationship with... with person and not just have his relationship be about football. And, you know, are you getting... are... is he getting, you know, the most out of the person? And it seems to work pretty well. You know, his teams did pretty well then. And I think that's a... that's the kind of mistake we often make is not to kind of

[91:19]

try to cultivate a wide sort of friendliness. And sometimes things change just in the context of a... of a wider kind of friendliness. You know, so sometimes it's just... so it's a matter of a sort of a strategy. Sometimes with a boss you just want to, you know, really make a point of saying, how are you? And, you know, how was your weekend or how's your kids? Or, you know, did you enjoy the football game on Sunday? Or, you know, I mean, you know, so that you have that kind of... kind of a camaraderie. And then it's easier to kind of, in the context of a kind of camaraderie, it's easier to, you know, maybe make a joke about the fact that, you know, that kind of comment upsets you or really sort of you feel intimidated by it or, you know, easily closed down by it so you're afraid

[92:19]

to have any ideas. Anyway, that's another one, you know, kind of basic kind of strategy, I think, is working on the relationship in a wider context and not just focusing in on the particular... the particularities of that particular thing. Another... Oh, one more thing about that, though, is... Well, in a way, I guess it's sort of to study what the person means by stupid and to put it into your language. That's another thing I would try to do. What is the person actually saying? Actually, is anything, you know, is there anything in what the person is saying that's actually a useful piece of information for you? An example of that is people, you know, I worked at Green's for four and a half years so sometimes the customer says, This pasta is terrible.

[93:21]

This pasta is horrible. And you go, Excuse me, but what is it that's horrible? Well, I don't know. It's just horrible. And so then, you know, you don't get any information. Okay, well, I'm not going to get any information out of this. But sometimes they say, somebody can actually say, Well, it's too salty. Or this eggplant in here isn't cooked enough. Or, you know, it's too soupy. So sometimes you get a little piece of information by kind of asking or kind of, you know, trying to go into a little bit either by asking or by thinking about it and see if there's any useful information in there for you and otherwise, you know, a lot of the time you have to set it aside. That's another one of my strategies. Yes. Well, that's just a story,

[94:37]

you know. Yeah. [...] No, I don't think they're separate. I really, you know, I really feel like when you've addressed the 84th problem and you're willing to have the other 83 problems, so to speak, then things can change in your life. As long as you, you know, you don't want those problems, then when one of the problems comes, you hit it. Or you shoot it. Or you attack it.

[95:39]

Because, you know, you don't want to have that problem. And, you know, Zen has this sort of feeling of having the problem and actually sitting with it, you know, over time. And because you're willing to be with the problem, something can change. And, you know, so I think there's a definite kind of correlation. And then there's something that changes that's different than when you try to not have the problems. That your approach to doing something with the problems is not to have them. And experientially that's what happens over and over again. I've noticed, like, usually when somebody starts meditating, there's a whole sequence of what happens. You know, the first six months you're feeling much better. And you think, meditation is so great. I'm feeling so much better. And then at some point, you know, the honeymoon's over. The disillusionment sets in. You know, this isn't doing what it was supposed to. You know, and then after a year or two, you start to get really angry. And then when you start to get really angry,

[96:40]

my first reaction was, I'm not going to have anything to do with this. And after a couple of years of trying not to have anything to do with it, I finally decided the only way that I'm going to be able to do anything with this is if I'm willing to be with it and study it and get to know it and find out what the heck it is and how to relate to it. And it took about two years to figure that out. You know, and since then, now other things have been just like that. It doesn't, you know, I haven't learned, didn't learn that lesson once and for all. You know, other things come along. After anger, usually then you have fear. You know, and you get terribly afraid and you feel like your body is going to shatter and fall apart. And, you know, and then after fear, maybe you have sorrow and grief and whatever, you know. Stuff goes on. Who knows? But over and over again, one has to, one decides, you know, what is it I really want? What is it I really want?

[97:41]

And you, and then that clarifies things over and over again. I want to be able to, you know, live my life. I want it to be okay for me to be me. In Zen we say, when you are you, Zen is Zen. We don't say, when you really get it together and become a really Zen kind of person, then that's good. That's it. Now we, and then, you know, we also say, no nice person ever got enlightened. You've heard that, right? But anyway. Oh gosh. Would I be willing to talk about food as a child and my relationship and how it's changed? I've kind of been talking about that and it's kind of a big subject. But it's, you know, in simple ways, I've always been kind of interested in food

[98:42]

and certain things were sort of pivotal but I didn't realize I was going to be a cook until I, you know, sort of happened. And I, when I was a child I didn't eat a lot of things and certain things happened to introduce me to things. You know, like when I was in 8th grade there was this cute little girl who we were doing show and tell. I brought in my clarinet and you talk about your clarinet and then you play it and she brought in lettuce and sour cream and dried basil and she made a dressing of sour cream and basil with a little salt and she mixed up the lettuce and she shared to everybody a piece of lettuce and I thought that was really good. And it was the, it was the first time in my life that I ever, you know, really liked eating a piece of lettuce. And I went home and I told my mother and then, you know, we had a lot of those salads after that. I'm going to, I'm going to stop now. You know, a lot of people seem to be leaving and then the people who are leaving aren't getting a chance to eat radishes and things. So I think I'm going to stop so you have a chance to eat radishes and things.

[99:43]

If you want to get a book, you know, I'll sign any books and if you want to come and talk to me, I'll talk to you too. Okay, thanks.

[99:50]

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