The greed, hate and delusion, I think I would agree with Jack Kornfield who says sometimes you know when we were younger and we first started practicing Buddhism, which he started about when I did in the mid-60s, he went to Thailand and went into a monastery during the Vietnam War, and while they were out in their jungle forest monastery, they sometimes you know they'd see the shells going up, they were pretty near the border and stuff. Anyway he said when I was starting to practice Buddhism I had greed, hate and delusion, fine we'll get through that and then go on. Later on I found out he says that greed was really greed, hatred or anger was really hatred or anger, and delusion was really delusion, and it wasn't so simple as let's put this behind us and you know get on with it.

[01:07]

As you know also in Buddhism, so delusion is also sometimes called ignorance too. So it's ignorance or delusion, ignorance is overlooking or ignoring basic kind of facts. One of the basic kind of facts that one ignores is that, remember what we were talking about and what I just referred to is like if you have object and organ and consciousness and they come together in a moment. So in any moment there's consciousness, organ, we say mind organ, mind consciousness, if it's a mental object or if it's a sense object then we have eyes, ears, nose and we have

[02:07]

consciousness in the object. When it comes into existence and arises we can't separate these three, but we know there must be these three there. And then we attribute all these things to the object rather than consciousness. Things like that the object has joy in it or the object has ease in it or the object is there's something to be hated here, there's something bad here in the object. We think it's in the object so this is a matter of ignorance, basic kind of ignorance. In fact then to even think that there is such a thing as objects is to a kind of ignorance. So delusion is actually to think that there really are existing objects that you could in fact have greed for or you could in fact have hate. That's why delusion goes over here because you have to understand that that object really

[03:08]

is there in order to desire it or in order to hate it. Does that make sense? If you don't understand it's actually there, if you don't really believe it's actually there then you couldn't be going after it or trying to get rid of it. But a lot of of course a lot of the things that we say well what do I do about, you know we say well what do I do about anger? And a lot of the time when we ask that kind of question the anger was when was it? Was it yesterday? Was it five minutes ago? We don't usually when we're angry say what do I do about anger? So then we're trying to do something about something that happened five minutes ago or three hours ago and what would we be able to do about it? Anyway there's a generally in Buddhism I mean sometimes it's said that you know people are of different types there's greed types hate types and delusion types and the story I like

[04:12]

about that is the people going to a party and you go into a party and maybe it's like you know coming into the day after dinner here I don't know go to a party and some people walk into the party and they look around and say oh wow look at all these interesting people boy this looks like fun and what great music that is and that food looks really good and they're all set. You know and other people walk in they go who are these people boy that music is too loud the food looks so greasy yuck. And the delusion people that are confusion you know they come in and say what's happening? What's going on here? Anyway I don't know I may have been a little bit you know short in my discussion about this but we're going to talk about it some more so let's see what happens.

[05:16]

So the hindrances there's these five hindrances and why they're called hindrances is because they hinder concentration they hinder the development of concentration so we have sense desire and then we have hatred or anger and then there's sloth and foreboding and then there's worry and excitement and then there's doubt.

[06:35]

Doubt? Doubt. Well a lot of time it's great when you start talking about the hindrances and then people start noticing and say is there something else? I mean that's where I spend all of my life. I've never noticed anything else. Sense desire so you're pretty familiar with this right? No? Explain it. Okay well you can either have you know an existing so supposedly existing object that you see one sees or and then one finds it agreeable or pleasant and then one wants to

[07:42]

have it or possess it. In other words if it's such a good object for giving you pleasure why not keep it around? So this is whether it's something you see or hear or if it's an object then that's very convenient because then you it's even you know if it's just a sound how are you going to possess the sound for goodness sakes right? So certain things are more conducive for you know having sense desire for you could have sense desire for sound but usually then you have to like imagine it you know in order to want to possess it or something like that. I want the record you know the tape because then I could play it whenever I wanted to and I would have this great feeling that I had when I first heard it. But as you know the those objects aren't going to and our objects don't have this capacity

[08:45]

to provide you with the same experience you had the first time or the second or whenever it was that you were so thrilled with the particular object the music and then if it's a person for goodness sakes not like you know the person is changing and they don't they don't seem to keep providing the same sense you know gratification you know that there might have been initially right? So anyway but to have sense desire you can see you have to sort of you have to believe that there's this object which continues and which will then has the capacity to give you to continue to give you the pleasure that you're either experiencing now or that you're imagining. Sometimes we try to in our imagination we can create objects so to speak which are attractive and give us pleasure and then we can have sense desire we can want to try to possess

[09:45]

that object or we can think that if I can imagine this object now I should go out and actually make this happen in real life. You know if I can imagine whether it's ice cream or cake or food or making love with somebody you can imagine it right then you think I should go make this happen in the real world because it was so good in my imagination it's bound to be better in the world of course you forget that in the in the real world there may be other consequences like the stomach ache and you know other sorts of problems that you didn't think of that wasn't part of what you imagined you know things in reality have there's more to it than what you what we put in our imagination. All right so yes. Well thoughts and states of mind to the extent that you desire them. As a sense yeah if you yeah that's included as sense desire right so if you have a beautiful

[10:55]

thought and you want it you like that thought or you would you would like to think that thought yeah then you're just you're having a sense this is a sense desire yeah and emotions or states of mind states of mind this is also true here too I'd like to have a wonderful beautiful state of mind I can imagine how nice it would be and as a matter of fact my mind seems pretty crummy so I would like to have this other one that seems you know that looks to me very attractive and pleasant you know so I'd rather have that other one so while we're busy you know thinking about this other wonderful state of mind imagining you know some other state of mind and how attractive that is you know this is setting up the notion that by comparison the state of mind that we're in or that we think we're in must you know is the state of mind that we're in seems kind of gray you know or whatever or painful

[12:01]

or whatever that is so one of the ways one of the ways to these hindrances are ways to get out of concentration in other words a kind of objectless what we were talking about last time of the flow of concentration which is not particularly in any object remember when we talked about that this is you know that may be sort of nominally focused on the breath but other objects may be coming up so when there's often when there's something about this content about this moment body mind our experience is gray or painful or conflict there's conflict you know I'm going to look bad then we can imagine some other blissful state you say well I want that one I don't want this one then we can have moments of

[13:05]

sense desire and then we can have moments of averting hatred anger averting and then often in order to have the hatred or anger averting we have to be able to we have to imagine some other way it could be and then the way it is we can try to get rid of that because in comparison it's painful or difficult and even more so now that we've imagined something so much better so similarly but in with the reverse condition situation hatred or anger again we have to we have some experience and there's something about it which catches

[14:14]

us so to speak and we think now I know the thing to do is get rid of this you know I know I'm gonna have to get rid of this and get it out of my sight get it out of my neighborhood get it out of my mind to get it out of my body it's really despicable it what is it is really despicable so we you know we have to put this on the object then the sound or the visual or the thought this is an awful thought get rid of it so you can see especially if it applies to when it applies to mind right if you had an emotion or you have a thought

[15:19]

and then now I'm going to get rid of the emotion or thought because it's so painful and the emotion or thought goes along with consciousness and mind organ this is all happening in mind now what are you going to get rid of but somehow we get this we get going on it so we we think that you know our are to arouse some anger or hatred towards it is actually we think effective in getting rid of this so oftentimes when we have anger that really makes me mad so one of the things of course that happens with the hindrances is we use them to combat other hindrances what's wrong with you you have so much sense desire that's really terrible that's really despicable you've got so much sense desire you know you're not supposed to have that kind of sense desire we tell this sort of thing to

[16:25]

ourselves and so then you know now we're pushing it's something what what do we you know and it's it's the sense desire by now is five minutes ago we're going on and on with our anger at ourself or something that you know you hear something that arouses anger this in Buddhism has all these wonderful lengthy sort of things about you know you hear a sound somebody says something to you and then your ears are working right so but you take that sound which is just sound and you can turn it into they she she you know must be thinking such and such about me or they wouldn't say that sort of thing to me and I think you know and they're trying to do this and we we can we have a whole story about it and why that is something to get angry about and our and our thinking to some extent at least is if I have when I have anger as I've said sometimes it's

[17:29]

like saying you know it might work with somebody else certain people you can intimidate if you talk to me like that again I'm going to be angry with you right and so then certain people that okay be very careful other people like they forget or there's people that you haven't met before so then the anger is going to come up and then but when it's your own stuff what about then when you get angry at your own stuff like your sense desire and does your sense desire care whether you've just gotten angry at it is it not going to show up again just because you know you got mad so but we'd sort of chase after them and then after we get angry we might go into a little sloth and torpor you know it's so depressing to be so angry all the time right isn't it doesn't it get so depressing after a while I mean get to sort of they said you can go into sloth and torpor next sloth and torpor aren't those great words it's I think it's Tina meet up in anyway this is something like

[18:57]

depression or laziness or tired being it's just you know like I give up you know this there's no point in making any effort I try so hard and then all this stuff still happens you know so why bother I'm not gonna even you know I'm not gonna stop trying you know I've been I've been trying to make this right and I've been I've been trying to make myself into a better person I give up yeah I've had it and it's you know then that means that so this is also like you know as opposed to a lot of this is you know as you can see these are ways to avert these are the these are the classic ways that we avert from the object that's in front of us so to speak of course this then becomes the

[20:01]

object that's in front of us but you know to say that it is what hinders our stops our concentration is to say that here we were you know concentrating on whatever it was breath posture you know walking washing lettuce we were concentrating on something and then we go oh this is so tiresome I find this so tiring or you know this is so hard like I think you know I think I'm just gonna go to sleep now you know have you ever noticed that like the day it's hard and maybe you know I think I'm just gonna go to sleep because and you know one of the things people say sometimes and when I like a green goats when I do once a month my one day sitting there oftentimes people say well how do I wake up in sauce and I seem to be falling asleep one of the

[21:07]

things I sort of want to know is do you want to wake up I mean who cares whether they wake up or not does somebody care and if you want to wake up it means that it means you're you know it means you won't have this nice refuge called sleep which means that the object that we would otherwise be paying attention to would tend to maybe be a little bit difficult a little bit painful a little bit tiresome a little bit annoying there's it's hard basically what happens when you pay attention to something it isn't it interesting when you pay attention to something that it it's not what you thought it was and there's more to it than you thought and it doesn't quite do what you wanted it to this is what happens when you pick in other words as soon as you pay attention to something you have a relationship and in America you know the myth of happiness is never having to relate to anything ever you know you push the button the TV goes on put the food in the microwave I mean let's not have to

[22:18]

wash something right or cut it or figure out how to cook it let's just put it in there push a button you know at my cooking workshops I talk about this because you know it's like when you go to the grocery store right and certain aisles and especially after you've been to Tussahara they're immense you know rows of color right and it's sort of like these little boxes and packages and they're sort of flashing and you walk down the aisle and they're going like and then you know if you if you sort of stuff and you go like well why I mean if you don't just go like oh okay whatever you say if you if you actually said go well why then they go well I'm quick

[23:24]

I'm easy I'm easy you won't have to relate to me see I want you won't have to think at all you won't have to feel at all you won't have to look handle you know you can just have something to eat without having to actually relate to anything I'm quick I'm easy when you get to the pros but you know do you want to have this is not something you can have a relationship with no relationship is different you get to the relationship is in the produce department hi how you doing pretty good and then because those things aren't going like this and then and then you can sort of talk you can actually relate you know how you doing pretty good well I can't figure out what to have

[24:25]

for dinner you know I've checked out what's over there you know and then you know what about what's you know and then you know pretty but you have to actually there's this relationship see then you have to figure out well what would I do with it you know what do I need to do how do I how do I bring this along how do I fix it up how do I make this into food and then that's work you know that's actually relating to something it's actually looking at it what does it look like and then you know and then how am I what am I going to have to do and you know to sort all that out this is relationship so concentration is also you know is this relationship and the hindrances are in effect cutting off the way that we stop relating in that sense we stop you know we want to stop relating it's too hard I can't figure this out I don't know how to make this into food I don't know how to make this you know into dinner this is not feeding me and I don't I know and I'm stuck now I don't know what to do so forget it I don't want to relate anymore and one way not to relate is think of something more wonderful someplace else or you don't want to relate well so fuck you you know or whatever you know

[25:51]

you tell something you know well this is not what I want to have a relationship with so get lost this is you know like well then I'll go to sleep and maybe when I wake up it'll be better you know or I'll try again when I have a little more energy to relate to whatever it is worry and excitement this is the you know worry and excitement this is just the plus and minus you know the sort of worry worry is like well I don't know if this is going to work out and excitement is wow this could really be great so it's kind of projecting into the future and kind of you know what's going to happen to me what's going to happen to everything else and so it's they're both they're sort of in the same category just you know projecting out is it going to be is it going to be worth the effort so you can get either worried or excited about it

[26:59]

what about this dinner I'm about to cook you know or what about this situation I'm in and what's going on will it work out I'm of and so to some extent you know worry goes along with the anger hatred I'm a little worried that this is going to stick around longer indefinitely and I'll always be stuck here or oh I'm really getting somewhere now my experience with excitement is more like there's too much energy and so the way you don't the way I have related to this get really excited or happy or whatever it is and I completely miss you know what anybody else gets too much energy and worry is a kind of too much energy too that's like before you somebody I was talking with the other day about this worry or anxiety it's a kind of energy which isn't actually which isn't like Tia was just saying not actually engaged

[28:20]

in the activity so like before you do something like before you give a talk maybe you get anxious or before you cook while you're actually cooking or once you're actually serving at some point you may not have this anymore and so to some extent that's good because you know part of this is a kind of excess of energy which comes up and it's more energy than we're used to having and so it's hard to have it relate to the object athletes often get that before you you know or musicians any kind of performer there's a kind of increase in energy before the event and then often when you actually get into the event then the energy flows through and it's fine but prior to the event it's a doubt is that is in a certain ways you know somewhat similar I think to sloth and torpor but it's a it's that nothing's ever going to work out and that there's no point why bother what's the use

[29:50]

and as soon as you start to concentrate you feel like this is stupid as soon as you as soon as there's any effort or movement you know you never get anywhere what's the use why bother and so you you can it's a way to sabotage or undermine concentration yeah protection against failure it's a way to not not not have to actually fail but it's also this moment that we've been sort of talking about you know any any moment the fact is that you know to relate to any particular moment in our life is is pretty difficult you know because basically this is unknown

[30:55]

we don't know what's going to happen it hasn't it's not like it's happened before so any particular moment when we start and so one of the things we start doing like this is like unknown and basically because it's unknown well we can project all kinds of things about what would what will actually happen in this unknown and so unknown and when it's unknown like that then you can you can think you can project all kinds of things so it can be it can be scary something might happen to me I might look bad you know Lee bringing up about failure reminded me about this so we have these other ways you know it's very interesting that even though we are you know we may be tired of our sense desire or anger or our sleepiness or you know our worry and excitement

[32:05]

even though we may be tired of it it's known it's mine I know it I'm familiar with it it's me whereas to relate to the unknown is suddenly like well what am I going to do and we like to think that we like to think that you could know what to do by knowing by knowing the object by knowing what's going on here and that we think if it's pleasant you know okay well then you know I'll try to get hold of it and if it's if it's painful I'll try to get rid of it and if it is overwhelming well maybe I can go to sleep so we sort of want to think that we could know what it is and at some point you know Buddhism is about being willing to be in this moment which is where we don't know we don't know it's unknown and it's in that sense it's sort of like it's scary what am I going to do how will I act what will I say

[33:29]

and of course in meditation we've talked a little bit about various sort of aspects like this but we say well follow the breath and pretty soon after that we have to add well when you follow the breath allow the breath or can you follow a breath that you haven't you know already imagined where you don't know what the breath is going to do can you actually inhale can you inhale where you don't know how long the inhale is going to be or what it's going to be like or where you're going to experience it and can you can you follow an exhale where you don't know where you don't already know ahead of time what what's going to happen is that possible so even at that level where it's my breath after all it's your own breath even at that level it's very you know it can be pretty overwhelming can we drop enough of our conception or our projection of what's going to happen what we know and actually begin to experience something that's a little outside of what we think a breath is

[34:47]

so the the nature of our awareness so in a certain sense the nature of awareness is control and so part of the to control this unknown we want to control the unknown and in that sense we want to control our body our mind our experience our breath our inhale our exhale because if it was really unknown then we don't know what you know something could happen something could actually happen so part of meditation of course is moving you know from control to you know something like allowing or not control but in some way beginning to just touch or experience in a very simple direct way inhalation exhalation which is beyond my idea of inhalation and exhalation

[35:58]

I'm sometimes wondering why fear isn't on this list in fact I don't even think it's a a a Dharma isn't it it's not in the Dharma list right it doesn't exist in Buddhism I'm sorry I don't know where it's on this list you know but I could talk about it a little bit I remember in a lecture when somebody asked about anger and came right back at me about that fear

[38:02]

it's like throw the anger away and look right under it until it's zero so it may be fine you could be in a situation like out in the ocean in a small boat in a big storm there's nobody there and you experience tremendous fear it's pretty basic so I don't know where the anger is in that situation I just thought I made a terrible mistake I shouldn't be here I think it has more to do with the projection of the imagined future even if you're compared to some fearful fearsome colors of the world fear is almost like imaginary what's going to happen to you yeah it seems like the sort of elemental fear that you're talking about there Larry wouldn't be a hindrance to concentration at all it's only when you get into this other realm of hatred or whatever caused this situation to come about or worry or anxiety about it

[39:13]

and one of the examples was being in a boat and it brought up this enhanced feeling of greed for personal survival you know some sort of mix is at the bottom of everything that you call a fear that's what I read well the people who sort of set this up the Buddha could you know like it's supposedly like somebody picking up a cup full of ocean water and then saying where all the drops are from you know which river the drops came from it's supposed to be that hard you know to look at the moment of consciousness and to tell all the things that are going on so I'm not I don't certainly don't consider myself the kind of expert who could make these kind of you know I'm happy to have you know fear be its own sort of object you know and I because I can't figure out you know which combinations of you know the rest of these things

[40:21]

I do know that you know as a general kind of thing it does seem that speaking of you know layers and stuff you know depression depression is often on top of anger so to speak and when you stop being depressed you can have some or you know because depression is putting the lid on some energy which is coming up which is too volatile so because it seems so volatile you and it's but it's the relationship in other words if you know never are in our model of our model of settle the self on the self you know so settle the self on the self

[41:55]

so if what's going on down here is you know we don't we don't know so much about it you know if it's kind of unknown and we say boy I don't know what's going on there I think I better stay away from that it's a little bit like the you know the fairy tales about you know Iron John is that is that good one like that that where at the beginning of it there's there's a part of the woods where it's gotten on that when people go into that part of the woods they disappear and they're never heard from again so other people stop going to that part of the woods so maybe I should be careful about you know actually see paying attention to any of this stuff because you know I could get lost here I could get swallowed up various things could happen to me so why don't I so why don't I stay in my head

[43:01]

you know in my thoughts and in my what I'm familiar with and keep creating basically you know these sort of things why don't I keep creating these kind of things so that I don't have to actually relate to any of this stuff that's unknown and so if I'm you know at some point because there's energy in our body in our being and I say well I'm sorry but no thank you then this is you know then you know when it's successful it's depression but the thing about it is that you might not be very you know some people are very good at it so you can have this you know long-lasting depression over a long time but what happens to a lot of us is that this anger is still coming up so because we're not utilizing this energy it's energy because we're not utilizing this energy then after a while it explodes

[44:08]

boom you know because it's sort of been building up down here because we don't use it it builds up does this make sense it's a kind of you know so anyway that's one this is just this just one aspect of anger you know is that it comes out of the relationship of it's a little bit also like saying to somebody you know somebody comes up to you over and over again and says hi how you doing and then you sort of ignore them you know one day they may come up and say hi how you doing and you ignore them and say would you pay attention to me why can't you say hello what's going on anyway you know this sort of comes out of relations you know it comes out of the you know the relationship that's why we say you know you should try to understand you know something we often don't understand or notice how things these sort of things are actually coming up because of our basic way of relating

[45:14]

you know and dealing with this unknown so if we say to what is unknown I don't think I want to relate to you and I'm not you know and I'll just try to stay in my own little world at some point the energy just explodes it's all over the place this is yes yeah anyway this is this is sort of one this is one different you know last week I was also talking about the analogy of the metaphor this is talking about it in terms of kind of relationship you know that things tend to come out of the kind of relationship we have or don't have with the with the supposed objects and you know last week last time I was talking about the fact that in meditation there are areas of our body which where we've organized

[46:17]

our being so that the energy flows around those places that the energies arising doesn't get into these places that are painful and difficult and we actually have these places in our body so when you practice meditation we're generating energy and we're also not moving which is a way to release the energy because we're not moving and we're generating energy pretty soon the energy starts to come into these places in our body where the energy has been going around and this starts to vibrate in some places in your body then that experiences anger there's sometimes you experience something you know like this is anger and then other times you just experience kind of like in your body and anger can be you know lots of places it can be in your abdomen, it can be in your chest, in your throat, in your head, in fact your neck, lots of places where there's a kind of intensity of energy

[47:21]

that's more than you can deal with more than you can control when you have the energy in your body well when you have the energy in your body, yeah you can have the energy in your body and then when you just experience the energy in your body as energy in your body then you don't necessarily translate it into the emotion of anger well it's in a certain sense I guess that's it's not exactly probably closer to ignoring or kind of overlooking not looking, not being in the body, not having awareness in the body carefully enough to experience it as bodily energy a bodily phenomenon there's something else I guess that I just left out there Chris yeah a little, I thought earlier you said

[48:29]

you know where's the anger from five minutes ago where is that? and now it seems like a lot of the resentment is that anger sort of like builds up somewhere and sort of hangs out for a while and then discharges in a powerful kind of joy so I'm wondering how that's well it's often described as that sort of thing of the seed and that when this is the most usual explanation that I'm familiar with where the seeds of anger are there and then when the conditions are right which means that depending on stuff that happens either outside or inside when the conditions are right the seed grows into the expression of anger and then the fact that anger is expressed you know produces a seed for future

[49:34]

I thought what you were suggesting is in an instance where anger isn't expressed yeah so in a sense what in this sense then the anger which is energy not being utilized it's not anger not being expressed it's energy or you know being bodily being that's not being related to in a certain sense oh so the seed models the anger seed that's sort of so what is activating the seed in that sense is that the fact that we're not that one is not relating with the ongoing dynamic of one's being okay and because and then that's what tends to activate this in a certain sense it's not as though it's not as though that that the uh

[50:43]

it's not as though the anger is existing already as anger and hiding out somewhere it's just you know this is this is only anger when when we experience it as anger this is there's no inherent object here that's hanging out here waiting to be anger it's just energy it's our it's our being in the same way that you know it's all consciousness or it's you know it's body mind so it's not it doesn't have any identity it's you know it's unknown so it's not as though the anger is hanging out this is a this is a place that this and um it's not as though the anger is hanging out it's unknown and then when we are in a sense when we when we this is only one kind of explanation of anger because there are many different kinds of explanations of anger okay but to a certain extent

[51:49]

when uh we don't relate with the unknown and when we are always saying to the unknown you're bad I don't want to deal with you I don't want to relate to you or we say like you know um somebody says hello somebody keeps saying you know can I talk to you no well when can I talk to you I don't want to talk to you in that kind of situation that dynamic you know if that's our if that's our dynamic then at some point this can be then but it wasn't it wasn't like that's anger this is just something that's saying would you can you pay attention to me this is just something unknown I don't know if I'm am I making sense well when does when does it become anger is it when if you express this sensation is that the point at which it becomes anger

[52:50]

is it expressed or no it's just that maybe this is not a useful explanation if it's not useful I don't you know I'm happy to just let go of it but the you know our um and it's not exactly um I don't know if this will help but part of what I'm thinking about this and you know is that you know that series that Derek did the sixth chapter and puts up this guy and at one point which is on patience right which is the antidote to anger at one point he launched into this thing about how the idea that we have or a popular idea

[53:51]

that we kind of like build up anger and then it needs to be discharged he said that it this it's just not it's not tenable with this kind of framework he was presenting as my remembrance of it but I've never it never it never quite was clear to me it still isn't uh why he was so energetic in his uh need to sort of like pull the rug out from this idea that we can we need we need to express stored up anger otherwise somehow it does us damage do you do you remember that chunk well that is a problem you know to treat something as existing and ongoing like that but then you're you're I don't know where to start now but because anyway what I'm trying to say is you know the um there's um you know

[54:51]

the supposed object the supposed object which is there in any moment of consciousness right uh to the to some extent at least the the way we treat this object has something to do with uh the way that the object appears to us so if I treat the object as being the object as being scary or um disturbing or you know often times anger is related to the fact that you know the underlying anger is a feeling of helplessness or vulnerability so this object appears overpowering

[55:52]

overwhelming and uh and if I don't get angry you know it's gonna it's gonna it's gonna get me in some way so all I'm trying to say is that the way that the way that we the way that what we're thinking about this object or the way we're treating this object which is not anything in particular but just the fact that we tend to treat things a certain way means that you know then stuff will appear to us you know come to us because of the what we're projecting onto the object which doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you know that anger is here that anger is in the object and this is I'm gonna have to

[56:54]

you know at some point set this aside but anyway that's what I'm trying to say is that and because the complicated part here is you know we say I but I is just another object and but there's you know but in a certain sense there's you know what we identify with as being I I'm gonna you know I don't wanna try to keep going on with this I'm just trying to I'm trying to say something which to me is basically pretty simple which has to do with the the way we treat things or look at things or what we see in things or how we're relating has something to do with what comes back to us and to a certain extent in the case of anger to a certain extent it has to do with the fact that there's there's stuff that's going on in a certain sense asking for our attention and when we're not

[57:56]

giving our attention in a certain sense then there can be a kind of flood of stuff it's a kind of and which we can then experience is anger yeah yeah so I mean it seems like there's two different actually two different things happening in a sense where you know there's this kind of mind divided against itself you know sort of unknown vitality of the body consciousness whatever and this kind of mind that refuses I ego refuses to relate to it and then this so this tension is there and you know sort of each moment through the seeds or whatever this tension continues to be there

[58:58]

as long as it's not devolved in some way and then at a certain point something else you know just happens along that kind of fits into the right template or whatever to you know to to trigger you know this another sort of response which is this emotional habit of anger sort of instead of really look sort of again meeting what's there within the body as you sort of described it it gets projected out onto something else you know a bad thought which would get angry or a bad person which would get angry or something like that yeah so basically if you have

[60:00]

what what if you're if some part of you is getting vibrated then you can find the you know whatever object it is can be the object which is you can blame the sun I must be vibrating I have to tell I mean that's how they can talk about transmuting you know this energy yeah because or whatever else I mean it's as you say it's just vitality in some sense that it's it could it can go flashing out in anger but this is like what kind of Gary Ross you know I probably told you before but the summer that I was taunted here Gary Ross came to visit and that was the summer that I complained about you know having to give talks and he said at least you know the language but it seemed like you know a number of people had gone to talk to him a number of people

[61:04]

told me about their a little bit about their conversation with him and it seemed like and I talked to him and it was the same thing and basically he seemed to tell everybody they said well I'm angry you know there's these people I have to work with I'm really tired I'm exhausted the schedule's too much blah blah blah blah whatever it was he basically seems to have told people that's the flower of your life force blooming don't you think? and then they go oh oh yeah that's right that's just that's the flower of my life force blooming oh I thought it was anger oh I thought it was tired but that's sort of what I'm you know trying to say see that's a very simple way of saying it and so what makes the difference between you know saying it as anger so anger is seen in a certain context in the flower of your life force blooming this is another context

[62:04]

so we call it anger because we put it into a certain frame a certain kind of it's not just anger it's also our vitality our energy our you know creativity and we're not using it somehow we're not we haven't figured out how to we haven't related to it enough to figure out how to use it just like relating it enough to a carrot to know how to make it into something edible so we'd have to we would have to relate to it enough to figure out how to make it work how to use it actually well it's not just being itself it has to do with the relation you know how to relate to it it's the relationship because also it's and part of that relationship means like you know usually we get the idea that I am going to do something about anger rather than saying that you know that maybe I need to change

[63:06]

how I relate to this or you know stuff how I just generally relate to things no I'm not going to change that I'm going to do something about that and usually what happens you know in meditation is you find out that you can't do that much about this stuff and that you may have to give up in some way you may have to change you may have to change your idea about you know what's going on here I've certainly had to do that with anger because you keep talking about relating and how true it's like paying attention when you really pay attention to anger or sort of the vast variety of feelings and sensations you feel that enable anger it's pretty different than just it's not that simple I'm using the word relating but you know we're really talking about I mean we started out talking about concentration you know and

[64:07]

in concentration you know concentration is applying the mind to the object there's a relationship but it's not just applying the mind to the object it's also some joy and some ease which means some you know vibrating you know in some way it's more than just applying oneself to the object trying to control the object there's actually this resonance or in that sense relating to the object or finding out about the object right and then what would I do with it there's that you know and then ease is is also like willing to do that making oneself at home in this place where you don't know what to do so this is all this is this is all included under concentration is you know what I'm saying is relating but then there's also we didn't talk you know mindfulness also means that and you know there's lots of things here there's kindness and stuff

[65:08]

because basically you know if you take the seed model didn't we talk about that didn't we talk about this in the lecture you know which is this is the this is the basement you know this is the penthouse you know and the seeds are down in the basement and the seeds of anger and you know greed and sloth and turpor are here so when the conditions are acting they come up now when they come up what are you going to do okay most of the time our tendency is when one of these hindrances or things that's a problem for us come up we're going to attack it with one of these other ones so you can attack you know sense desire with anger you can attack anger with sloth and turpor or you can attack anger with sense desire or you can have doubt and so you can go back and forth among these as the solution for whatever it is that's coming up and the point is

[66:12]

that when you do that and you start then you're then you're involved with these hindrances and you're not you're not able to concentrate and you're not able to have mindfulness and it's and it's and to attack what comes up with these other things it just keeps perpetuating this whole sort of habit cycle okay and and to some extent of course one can keep oneself occupied and busy up here so that you know the worst of stuff doesn't come up but what happens in sitting of course is that painful things very painful things can come up and now what do you do when something very painful comes up are you going to attack it with anger you know are you going to go to sleep now I mean I know that you know

[67:12]

painful stuff comes up in meditation see so what we're trying to do you know is to continue to our concentration and also some mindfulness and perhaps even some kindness which is to which is to instead of attacking it with this with another one of these things we we can actually kind of be a you know in a sense you know like a friend mindfulness means mindfulness means you know experience to experience something without judgment you know like we say to see I mentioned to you to see somebody for the first time and not think about whether you like them or not to see the color of the moon and not wish for more color or brightness it's just experiencing like and if it's anger okay and it's possible just experience anger and when we do that

[68:13]

and we're not we're not sort of fighting against it or pushing against it or avoiding it or going to sleep or whatever and we just can allow it to experience it then we don't create another seed actually something can get released something is then released so it helps to be concentrated and to then to be able to relate to something in this in this kind of full way which is which is not and there's some kindness or gentleness here and it's you know the the analogy is like you know just and we literally the analogy in Sotusen is sit with it and you think well but it's too hard to sit with it well but what works any better

[69:13]

than just sitting with it you know is there something you're going to do actually to make it better to fix it or you're just going to you know at some point you just sit with it and that releases it it's a little bit like that I heard about sand painting is it sand painting is that what it's called where you know the it's a kind of therapy where you have a little sandbox and there's walls and walls of toys and objects and stuff that you can put into the sandbox and make this scene sand therapy sand tray sandbox therapy yeah and the way I heard it is you make the scene and then you tell the therapist about it say well what's the scene you've made there and they don't and that's it it's not like and you don't have to talk about why you made the scene just talk about what the scene is but it's not as though the therapist is going to do anything it's just like there's an awareness that's big enough to just receive things

[70:14]

just receive it's like in a certain sense that's also you know why it's also called heart because it's really the heart that receives and you know in you know in Chinese Japanese that the word for mind is heart or heart mind mind heart but it's the heart that actually can just receive things and doesn't have to fix them but you know it's there's presence there are you are you understanding what I'm saying this is actually possible to do and and in fact what it takes is it takes heart do you have the heart for it you know or are you going to you know tell it to go away or try to grab it or try to possess it

[71:14]

or are you going to get you know do you have the heart just to be with something and at some point there's something to be with is your own anger or your own frustration or your own fear it's just being with it and the being with it is what releases the long you know this old stuff but it's also the being with it is what allows us to actually respond you know from the depth of our being rather than to respond with you know some thing that we're going to do because it's it's what you do with this stuff when you dislike something or you're you know if we have anger then we think well you know we have these ideas about how you how to get rid of something or how you treat something if you know if somebody is careless what do you how do you treat carelessness if you're careless

[72:15]

what do you do we have we grew up with all these kind of ideas about well you know you just do this and this and this or you know and so we have these approaches and we have these kind of fixed ways of doing stuff which is all of our habits and everything you know that we're sort of caught up in and that sort of that just keeps on going because it's our particular knot and nexus except for when we actually can practice concentration and some mindfulness and maybe some kindness you know and good heartedness and just be with things where we're not where we're not doing all of our stuff where we're not pulling out our whole repertoire of you know behaviors to try to control things and you know and adjust things and fix things and so on is this making sense? uh Daniel?

[73:16]

excuse me in the sangha jewels mirin samadhi seems like the hindrances are sort of referred to under the blanket term erroneous imagination it's that line like when erroneous imagination assumes the acquiescent mind realizes itself it would be it's interesting that this term ceasing is in juxtaposition with acquiescence so it's not like erroneous imagination ceases because some superior imagination comes along and you know blasts them out of the water but the mind just acquiesces in some way and realizes itself yes? I was just going to tell you oh okay I had so much more to talk to you about tonight um let me just spend maybe about 3 or 4 more minutes if that's alright well maybe not

[74:20]

um I do want to say a little bit about this though um so usually you know so often times we think that the thing to do is to get rid of the hindrances and adopt another hindrance as though to get rid of it but actually we don't need to get rid of the hindrances we make them you know an object of our concentration and our mindfulness to be aware of it and you know it's like it's in a certain sense this is this is again what I was trying to talk about before but um it's a little bit like just being just listening and receiving and and not you know if you're with somebody who's really hurting you know and you say to the person well why are you hurting so much? you don't have anything to be unhappy about does that help the person who's

[75:24]

really hurting? or if you get mad at the person you know shape up don't be such a baby you know or if you say ah gee you're really pretty uh you know is this supposed to make the person feel better? you know or I'm tired of you or so what do you tell somebody who's really hurting? at some point you know really at some point it's a really nice thing to do to just be with someone then you can't you can't you know somebody who's dying you're not going to fix them you're not going to make them all better whatever you tell them you know they're still going to die so at some point it's just being with things just being there and that's and it's tremendous healing which doesn't have to do with coming up with some great strategy you know so you know if there's if there's hatred if there's sleepiness you know

[76:24]

it's just being with it that's so to send just to be with it I also want to I've talked about this a little bit in my lectures but there is a sense in which again in terms of this you know what is our basic relationship but you know these are also our teachers you know potentially our teachers so I really think that if when we you know why does sense if sense desire comes up a lot why does so much sense desire come up is that because it's there and there's just a bunch of it there well I think it also says something about the basic way I must be going about things probably you know I'm not going about things with very much joy maybe I need to cultivate joy you know

[77:27]

and without it being attached to the object that I'm imagining as you know object versus sense desire does that make sense to you so these things say something about also the you know so when we actually start relating to them you know and we sort of say you know what are you doing why are you here what's up you know at some point they're not just what they appear to be anyway for what it's worth

[78:17]

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