to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. That means I get to start. Ready or not. I wanted to... I think probably tonight I'm going to do a lot of talking. But at some point if things come up, you know, feel free to interrupt, I guess. But don't interrupt too much, because I do have a lot of things I want to talk about. First of all, I want to follow up a little bit on the last class. A couple of things that I noticed. One is, I think somebody mentioned to me that it is hard to think about what you would say about the third precept, about what is sexual misconduct, or what are some further perhaps elaborations of that, sort of on the spot.

[01:01]

You know, it might be nice to have a little warning. Anyway, excuse me for not giving you some warning about that. But the other part about it is that I realized that in that sense it's also kind of a mistake to read you this elaborate precept that Thich Nhat Hanh has. Because then we can spend... it's much easier to say that I don't like that, rather than saying here's what I would say. So it kind of threw off... I think in some ways it sort of threw off our discussion. Anyway, that sort of thing is interesting to me. And you see, this has to do with the fourth precept, which I'm lumping together all various aspects of communication in the fourth precept. What is conducive to good communication? So there's a couple of things, you see, that I noticed about the last class that maybe weren't so conducive to good communication or to having you, you know, a chance to say and to kind of prepare something to say. There was also something from last week's...

[02:02]

that last class that I thought was interesting. And partly because for me it relates to Chinese medicine. And sometimes it's curious, the language, but... Anyway, again, tonight is about language, communication and so on. So particularly the fourth precept is not to tell an untruth or not to lie. But I want to include in this kind speech and not to slander others and praise yourself and a number of things. But I thought it was interesting, the language of some of our discussion last week. When we say things like, for example, well, why would I want to impose those kind of regulations on myself? Why would I want to submit to that? You see that, you know, why is it the language is impose, submit? You know, does that sound like a situation where some communication is going on?

[03:03]

That sounds like a situation where somebody says, you do this and then you have to submit. It's just imposed on you and you can't talk back. There's no discussion allowed. And somehow that's the way we think sometimes, you see, and then it comes out in our language. And in Chinese medicine the liver is the organ which is associated with activity. The liver stores the blood and then it moves the blood into activity. Activity in the world, you know, moving your arms and your legs, your mouth. The liver is moving things to action. It's also into sexual activity. And the interesting thing about the liver energy is that it can sometimes get excessive. When the liver energy gets excessive then it just likes to do stuff. And it doesn't like anything to get in its way. You know, and then if something gets in its way it just says,

[04:09]

well, hey, I don't have any problem, what's your problem? And it does this in our bodies. And there's certain kinds of damage that we have in our bodies because of excessive liver energy. Then you also see it in the world. There's sometimes people who are expressing and acting and then if there's some problem about it they say, well, I'm just being sincere. I'm just, you know, hey, this is just the way I am. You have a problem with it? What's your problem? Why are you so emotionally unstable? Why don't you shape up? You know, get yourself together. So the liver energy, when it gets excessive especially, tends to not want any boundaries. And of course it can cause a fair amount of damage in that kind of situation. In the body it tends, a lot of the time, to go to the head. And it causes sinus congestion and eye problems, ear problems. It gets tight neck and shoulders and, you know, various things anyway.

[05:10]

Well, curiously enough, what balances this in the body is the lung. The lung is associated with order, structure, restraint. It's the capping organ in the body. Now, the point is not that the lung just imposes itself on the liver. You know, or the liver has to just submit to the lung. When the lung is excessive and regulation is excessive, then you call that moralistic. And then that's manifested as depression and repression and a kind of stiffness and rigidity. And it's also manifested by the fact that there might be at times a kind of acting out. When the liver chi, which is submitting, you know, because it doesn't have the opportunity to come, arise and go into action, because it's been excessively structured and ordered and held back, restrained, then it kind of, you know, sneaks out when you're a little tired or weak.

[06:16]

There's anger or frustration or, you know, some kind of explosion of some sort. So the liver is associated with anger and the lung is associated, the emotion associated with the lung is a kind of sorrow or grief. In the autumn, the leaves fall. And it's sorrowful or sad to have some regulation. But it doesn't... But the point here is not that one has its way and, you know, the other one has to sort of back off. The point is to have some harmony, harmonization of... And it's the same also of... just generally between... I think it was Daigon who told me this story. You told me that story about when you were at the theater workshop, didn't you? With Keith Johnson? Would you tell him? Oh, well, it's a story you told me where he... You put on a mask

[07:16]

and then you were supposed to do something with the mask on and he said he didn't do it. What his first impulse was. And Keith said to him, What didn't you do? You didn't do what occurred to you to do, did you? And then Daigon said, You're right, I didn't do it. And Keith said, Well, it's okay. You don't have to do everything that occurs to you. But you should know when something occurs to you that you're not doing. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? That's communication. There's a kind of communication. There's a knowing, a seeing, an acknowledging. And it's not just... I'm not hearing that. I'm not noticing that. I'm not listening. I'm not getting that when it comes up. I just am so quick to say no that I don't even notice what it was I said no to. And then sometimes we're just so quick to say yes. We don't even remember some precept we may have heard at some point

[08:19]

or some other part of ourselves that we know from the past that when I do this, I hurt afterwards. And so we can hide it even from ourselves and that gets lost. So again, it's some point of lack of communication. The various parties or voices are not in the same place. Anyway, I thought that was interesting from last week and how it relates for me as I'm trying to explain at least to communication. Anyway, there's a number of things about communication I want to share with you. First though, I did remember I wanted to share with you at some point that when I was at Karma Choling Trungpa Rinpoche's center in Vermont we did the five or eight or something precepts every day. But for them it was only good for 24 hours. So it was part of morning service.

[09:20]

And so they said now if you have any plans for the day, you know this is a community that even when I was there still there was a fair amount of alcohol and sex going around on. So if you have any plans for the day you keep your mouth shut when that precept comes along. This is what they told me. But if you say it at the beginning of the day you should keep it for 24 hours. So there are these different durations for these kind of things. So what I'd like to do is kind of talk about a few different kinds of things about communication. And I hope this is okay with you and perhaps of some interest to you. Some of it I'm sure you've heard before. But I'd still like to kind of go over it again. One of the things that has struck me now for some time

[10:23]

is to is to kind of think about who it is that we're talking to when we talk. Have you ever thought about that? Who is the person that you're talking to? Because sometimes it's the sort of thing I'm very sensitive to it. So when somebody starts talking to me like boy are you stupid and now I'm going to explain this to you anyway. You know I get a little hurt. It doesn't even matter what they're saying. Or why are you laying the strip on me? And they're sort of talking to me like I'm some big ogre or something. I'm sort of going like who are they talking to? Or like somebody said to me one time you're really angry with me aren't you? And of course a lot of the time when somebody says that it makes me kind of mad that somebody's telling me how I feel. You know that they've decided for me how I am.

[11:26]

And so at that time I may get a little angry. But you know or I just want to strangle you. I mean this is somebody who hardly knows me right? But this you know a few things have happened and you know it's sort of like I'm going like who do you think I am? Excuse me but who do you think it is that you talk to? And the interesting thing about this for me is we basically talk we're basically all the time talking to ourselves. So it's really interesting to see when you talk to somebody else not only we say why don't you listen to the other person but when you talk how about listening to yourself talk and trying to hear who it is that you talk to. And it's oftentimes you see some aspect of ourself that we're actually talking to

[12:32]

because we're all the time we tend to relate to each thing that comes up the same way. So we tend to be like you know it tends to be some reflection of our own inner dynamic people that we are. So we try to explain ourselves to ourselves or we sometimes have to defend ourselves so we get when somebody else says something and then I get defensive. Who am I defending myself against? I'm defending myself really against the person in me that attacks me. Why don't you grow up Ed? See so somebody in me is going and saying you're such a baby. So I'm going no I'm not. Yes you are. No I'm not. So even then sometimes at home I'm cooking dinner. And then I'm really kind of upset that I have no help right. But still when somebody offers to help

[13:33]

I go no I don't need any help. Why is that? Because I want to tell someone that hey look I'm competent. I'm grown up. I don't need help. Why is that important to me? Because there's another part of me that's saying you baby you really ought to grow up. Isn't it about time you had some competence in your life? And here's somebody you know a very thoughtful and considerate person comes along and offers to help me. And instead of that I snap at them. It's very curious. But that's an example of talking to myself. Some part of myself that's talking to me. And a lot of the time it's the person that's doing the talking to me. You know I don't even notice that I'm telling myself you need to grow up. And I notice it though when I start talking to somebody else. That I'm telling

[14:34]

that what I'm saying to them is really is why do you think I'm so incompetent? Why do you but you know and they haven't even thought that. They're just offering to help Another kind of different kind of example of this and the power of even just a word as far as who is it you're talking to? Once I was in the old kitchen here which is about where the dish rack is and it was right before lunch and I was quite agitated and kind of angry and nervous it's a it's a practice we have here that when the bell rings the food is served. That's something else that was different at Karma Choling when the food is ready the bell is rung. Their idea is

[15:37]

why should we put all this you know tension and anxiety into the kitchen crew? Why not have everybody share it? And besides that and besides that their kind of idea is more like do you have some attachment to order? You know, things being on time what is your problem? Relax, relax it'll take care of itself, it's okay. Lunch is an hour late? Fine. Lunch is two hours late? Okay. Anyway, here as you know when the bell rings the food is served so I am doing my best to try to make sure the food is getting ready and I'm busy working but also it's like all these thoughts are going on and why couldn't so and so have done something faster? What are the things that we need to do now

[16:38]

to last minute? And at some point I heard this voice and it said Ed and I didn't know how long this voice had been going on like maybe it had to call my name several times and I looked up and the other thing about it was that even though it said Ed it didn't sound like anybody that I knew. There was something about this Ed was a really nice person and a person who was kind of valuable and wonderful and a really good person a good hearted person and so it just took me a little while to go like it says Ed but it doesn't sound like me because I'm an agitated annoyed, frantic, nervous person and I looked up

[17:40]

and it was Suzuki Roshi and then I kind of and then it was like everything all these clouds it was like a storm just passed by and then there was this blue sky and yes I'm that person too. That's the power of one word when you're talking to somebody and you see something that we call something like what we call Buddha nature you're not just talking to some you're not in this kind of dialogue with yourself or some part of yourself that's laying some trip on you or that you have to defend yourself against or you have to prove something or you want to make sure that they know something about you and all of that it's just this something very precious I don't like that expression

[18:41]

very precious but there's this quality anyway we hear it sometimes when somebody actually acknowledges us as being a basically considerate thoughtful warm-hearted human being we maybe have our ups and downs and our problems etc but in some essential way we are sincere warm-hearted beings especially when you know here being practicing at Tassajara so partly speech is also some way to to be careful in speech is also some way to make that kind of acknowledgement so I want to talk about some of the ways some of the things that relate to that one is again as you know

[19:43]

and you may have heard there's something we do sometimes where we make demands or we make kind of unshared decisions and then announce them and there's something about that that is quite upsetting to the other party sometimes we don't know it's a demand you know if if I ask somebody Steve will you get me a cup of tea please and Steve says you know I'm really kind of tired and I'm kind of busy right now maybe somebody else could do it for you and Steve haven't I done so many things for you or you know you think you're tired we're all tired you know so you know it's a demand

[20:43]

when you're when you when you say no or I'm busy or something and the other person you know gives you some puts some shame on you or some guilt or some kind of something like that it's just once we know that it's a demand we don't want to do it even though we'd actually kind of wouldn't mind do you know how that works it works with anyway it's something that comes up with parents and children and unshared decisions are and it comes up in these you know hierarchical structures like we have here so sometimes you know I don't know how it was for you

[21:47]

you know I try out different kinds of language like when I talk in the Zen Do because sometimes I feel like if I can say something that's very direct and simple and I'm not really trying to say it as a demand you know but even something so direct and simple is settle yourself you know and because sometimes if a voice says settle yourself you do and how nice that's my experience right but there are times when somebody can say settle yourself and then you feel like why are they bossing me around and then if you feel that if you get a little taste of why are they telling me what to do or why are they making this putting this trip on me see then it doesn't work anymore so I don't know exactly what happens when I talk in the Zen Do you know whether it comes across as a kind of demand or not

[22:47]

and partly because I think about that that's what led me towards the end of the session I don't mean to say I don't want to force anyone to experience joy you know I don't want to make a demand I don't want to demand that you have joy but I'd like to bring it up bring it up for you but there's also kind of unshared decision like oh this comes up in various ways but sometimes when like I was living with somebody one time and they came home one day and said I'm moving out isn't that a surprise I thought we were living together I thought we made shared decisions or you know when I was at Greens and people used to come into work and say well I bought my tickets for Thanksgiving I'm flying back to New York maybe there's no problem about it

[23:49]

I would like to go to New York for Thanksgiving what do you think and then we can talk about it and even though it may be fine to go to New York for Thanksgiving but the fact that somebody comes in and just announces it you go wait a minute wait a minute this doesn't feel right we were I thought we were in a kind of mutual relationship here and and that sort of thing and sometimes we do demands or these kind of unshared decisions and we come out with these demands and unshared decisions because of course we don't want somebody to say no it's a way to try to to get our way for what we want and to be more certain of getting it and interestingly enough you see how it kind of tends to backfire

[24:52]

because people's resistances really come up when we make demands or these kind of unshared decisions and announce them so I think that's something to notice if you notice yourself making demands or these kind of unshared decisions I also notice a lot that and I know we've all heard this before about listening about being careful to listen it comes up so often

[25:53]

that somebody hasn't listened several years ago the last time that I was the Tanto here about 1984 we were sitting here in the dining room at the beginning of practice period and we were talking about somebody started talking about the schedule and couldn't we sit more and since then as you know we sit more and we sit all morning I made a rather careful statement I think through I thought this through pretty carefully and made a rather careful statement that sitting is important and valuable and but when you think that or if you think that sitting is important and valuable and the other places in your life are not this is a kind of mistake

[26:56]

and that so and then you know I made some statement like this and then right away somebody said but Ed this is Tassajara and we should be sitting more and they said it to me as though I hadn't said it to other people excuse me but were you listening to what I just said anyway we do this this happens a lot sometimes little ways sometimes big ways and it's also part of if you listen carefully then you'll know the difference between what somebody says and how it was you talking to yourself just like the person offering to help me cook when I'm trying to prove how confident I am there's some voice in me

[27:59]

that belittles me I had especially what to me was especially striking example of this when I was in at a workshop of communications workshop at the Zen Center in the city and we were doing this kind of simple little what one of the sort of things you do at communication workshops which is you have a partner and then one person talks for whatever a minute two minutes then the other person repeats back what you said and actually we had about eight people and so I would somebody would talk to the person across from him and they'd repeat back what you said and then they would talk and you'd repeat back what they said and the other people are sitting there to listen

[29:01]

and you repeat it back until the person says yes that's what I said very interesting to see what happens and some people it's not so hard and other people really have a hard time hearing something other than their own thoughts and they and the one woman that I happened to end up with she could not repeat back what I said I had to do it I had to get down to like a phrase at a time and even then she had trouble and this was a person you could see and because I knew her just a little bit I knew this person has a lot of trouble and difficulty in her life so we hear this a lot but and even though you try to do this

[30:04]

I've tried I try to listen sometimes I don't hear what somebody says you know that I'm making up and you take the words that somebody else says and put it in your own language and you make it sound like something else and so an easy thing to do when you get in an argument or a fight so to speak a verbal kind of fight is to kind of try to check and if somebody and so you can say what do you think I just said to you what was it that I was saying to you and then when the person says it back you can see why they got mad because it wasn't what you said I thought you were making you were making fun of me well wait a minute what did I say you know you were criticizing me well what did I say what were the words and then you can see a little twist of words

[31:05]

and why somebody is reactive because in the words that you said that for them are reactive words and they right away shift your words and you know we shift the words we hear into the reactive words that gets into our internal dialogue and then that's what we get angry at that's what we get in a fight with so of course that's also a kind of that listening is a kind of skill and it relates to another point which people often make in communication workshops which is to be very careful about asking questions like there's a whole long list of things to be careful about doing if you're trying to get somebody to tell you what's going on with them so you have to not only not ask

[32:07]

questions but don't give in don't give advice don't give support don't give encouragement don't give a lecture don't give a sermon don't be understanding somebody can say something and you say oh I know what you're talking about because then the person might feel like what do you mean you know what I'm talking about I just started talking there's a lot of little things we can say that shut somebody out very easily if I'm in a somewhat where I'm trying to articulate something that is you know basically inarticulate and one of the ways in fact that we find out what's going on you know in me that I find out what's going on me is if I can say it to somebody else that's one of the reasons why we have practice instruction in DOSAN we find out

[33:09]

it's not like I knew that already but if I can say it now I found out what's going on so somebody says oh I know what you mean oh you do do you or or somebody can be express a little curiosity sometimes like therapists do this right and how did you feel about that do you want to hear what I want to talk about or you just or do you want to structure the conversation so there it's it's often very easy when if you're you know and it's the same thing with ourself we start to tell ourselves something it's very easy to shut ourself up again

[34:10]

you know it's very easy to say something like I don't want to hear that you know you have no reason to feel that way your life is fine what's wrong with you anyway there's lots of things we say that kind of stop a voice in us that's trying to say something and we do this with other people too and sometimes we're trying to be very thoughtful and considerate we're trying to give some good advice or we're trying to express our our compassion or understanding or sympathy or something like that but it's very easy to have it be something that somebody who's you know so used to being shut up you know and so at some point and to really listen you have to almost be quiet

[35:14]

yourself and not not really take part in the conversation this is and you know there's it's sort of to some extent it's a cliche these days you know this sort of business of active listening but it's kind of like just basically it's almost like just repeating back somebody says which is very reassuring that you've been heard you've been heard and one of the things as I mentioned is not asking a question because oftentimes the question to ask a question makes somebody feel defensive how did you feel about how did you feel about that it looks like it's expressing some interest but you know the person who is being a little bit timid or shy or feeling vulnerable may feel like kind of attacked in some way you know poked at

[36:15]

or you know that somebody's kind of prodding them or you know prying somebody's prying you know when you ask how did you feel about that and it's even a little bit different if you say if instead of asking the question a lot of times it helps just to make a statement I wonder how you I wonder how that made you feel that's not saying that the other person in the same way it's not quite the same kind of you know prying it's a kind of expression of interest I wonder how you felt little different you know it's a subtle difference but sometimes that difference makes a difference so a lot of in a very you know careful active kind of listening it's very much like sitting

[37:16]

and try to and sometimes we say don't set aside all the thoughts go back to your breath but the other side of it is you have a chance to really hear the thoughts this is sort of reminding me of something and this is a little throwing excuse me but sometimes here I feel a little funny when I see somebody carrying four teapots we used to carry a number of teapots and Suzuki Roshi would give these talks and say you know it's not very respectful to carry four teapots and if you want to respect something you carry it with two hands you know you give it that much attention and it's the same of course when we drink a cup of tea you know in the Zen tradition you pick it up with two hands

[38:17]

and you drink your tea with two hands this is to respect the teacup to respect the tea and to honor the activity in some way excuse me but it's sitting here getting cold and you can if you look at some of our pots it's interesting you know you can see the life that they've been through the teapots are still in pretty good shape but some of our other pots they are really banged up and they haven't been here that long they get a lot of use but it's very nice they're very forgiving you know they go on being pots anyway and they don't go on strike or anything

[39:18]

and say if you're going to treat me like that then I'm not going to be your friend anymore so I think they're very forgiving and all that but I was somehow putting this together with so for a long time we carried teapots with two hands but I was sort of somehow the other day putting this together with our thoughts the thoughts that come up and can you take the thought with two hands or in some way really acknowledge the thought and hear the thought and part of the idea of stopping thoughts is to be able to actually hear thoughts too they sort of go together if you're in a relationship clearly you don't want to be pestered all the time with what somebody else thinks but also if you never pay any attention

[40:19]

to what somebody else thinks after a while they wonder what kind of relationship is this I had a friend I met originally because we were both going to the same therapist and it turned out that she was married to a Buddhist who would they were both at one point members of this particular Buddhist group and then she left the group and he continued in the group and he was a priest in this Buddhist group so when she wanted to talk to him he would do his beads excuse me honey but I have to do my beads now anyway eventually after quite some agony she got a divorce because there didn't seem to be any way to have a real relationship with this person this is the same way

[41:21]

it is with yourself if all you do is say well I'm not going to think anything or if I think anything I'm not going to notice what I think I'm just going to go back to my breath I mean at some point the point of being able to do that is also that you can actually take your thought with both hands and think it and acknowledge it in some real way and in that sense we sometimes say that practice is not to cut cutting down all thoughts or the vines of the vines but to sort vine from vine so another kind of example this of course is the if you have the mother and a child a young child sometimes the child is going mommy mommy and then the parent says or the daddy since I was a daddy I'm familiar with this look I'm busy I got stuff to do leave me alone

[42:22]

now we should be able to say that in Zazen too right I've got stuff to do I've got my breath to follow please leave me alone do that right now you're going to make a demand of that is there going to be some emotional punishment for yourself if the thoughts don't leave you alone or emotional punishment towards the thoughts as though they were somebody else talking to you so I figure if I'm going to ask so if you're a parent you know after a while that the thing to do is to when you ask to be left alone you want to make a definite you're not trying to tell the child look I don't want to have anything to do with you ever again you're trying to say right now I have some things I need to take care of would you be willing to let me take care of these things and after dinner

[43:23]

we'll do something together or we'll play such and such a game later I'm going to do this thing with you later now if there's never any later what happens to the child it gets even more worried and tugging at you or else it goes off into some base dark basement and hides mommy and daddy don't want to have anything to do with me and then there's some feeling of abandonment and there's some part of us we may have abandoned because nobody ever wanted to have anything to do with it so I figured that you know a healthy kind of relationship with your thinking is like a healthy kind of relationship with parent and child or healthy kind of relationship with liver and lung in other words both get to have some say the child really has something well there's an emergency

[44:29]

I have to not do what I thought was so important anyway I better take you to the hospital since you cracked your head open and even the most important thing you know it doesn't matter anymore so there's you know we should we need to have this kind of reciprocal kind of relationship and when we have that kind of reciprocal kind of relationship you know sometimes we listen and sometimes we can say look I'm busy now and it's a kind of ongoing communication it's a kind of ongoing interaction which acknowledges both both parties when I first learned about it it was a person talking about this kind of speech so I talked a little bit about

[45:30]

this last summer here at Tessera some of you may have been here but in some ways some of the people who developed this and think about it as a kind of dharma dharmic speech a way of speaking rather dharmically so to speak and it seems very useful to me because it one of the things that it's trying to avoid is some objective reality that we all can that we can argue about and it also points out some of the places where we tend to be lazy in the way we talk or careless in the way we talk so there's four parts in this kind of model of communication there's four parts

[46:31]

and anyway depending on whose it is they're somewhat different but the four I'm most used to is there's an observation and then there's a thought there's a feeling and there's a request or a wish so for instance and we tend to kind of leave out the observation a lot of the time we leave out the feeling and the request and we say something we say our thought okay so somebody comes up to you and says I don't like your attitude do you have any idea what they're talking about is that of some use to you or does it reveal in other words we call it a visible statement because the question is does it reveal something does it make something visible

[47:31]

so for somebody to say I don't like even though they say I don't like this is actually a thought this isn't really a feeling even if they say I don't like the feeling is something more like I'm angry, I'm hurt I'm offended I'm sad I'm annoyed that's a feeling so it really helps in a kind of for communication here if you actually were to use this kind of model you have to make an observation what's the observation and why we call this dharmic is just like the abhidharma what the abhidharma does we don't talk in the abhidharma about a bad attitude or if we do we have to specify something about what makes it what it is and we have to locate it in time on such and such an occasion these were the things that were present

[48:34]

because here are the elements of faith and application and energy and mindfulness and I'm calling that wholesome so in the same way in this communication model you have to say something like yesterday when I asked you to bake bread if you would make the bread you told me to get lost or something you said get somebody else to make the bread and you said it in such a way that it sounded to me like you meant I shouldn't even have been asking you if you would do that and I felt a little hurt when you replied to me like that and I think that what I think is is that in those kind of situations it would be useful if you would well anyway

[49:43]

I think it's not particularly appropriate since I'm in charge of the kitchen when I ask you if you'd make the bread then something I'd like I would like a more kind of respectful response or I would like you to not be so snappy in your answer or whatever anyway you know if you start talking about bad attitude and you don't reference it to what did you actually observe what did you actually notice what were the actual words of the conversation what were the words that somebody said that is causing you to think and call something a bad attitude if you don't actually reference it the person has no idea the person is just being attacked

[50:44]

well they think I have a bad attitude what do they think I've been trying really hard I work really hard they are always laying these things on me what are you going to you have no idea what it's about then you can start reacting about the fact that somebody said something to you and another thing we do is we don't put any request on the end say you have a bad attitude when I asked you to do that you just kind of snapped off at me and you went stomping out of the kitchen or whatever you did and I snapped off at you okay well I'm sorry yeah well sorry isn't enough at some point what can the person do do you have some request and it has to be something the other person once you say here is what I would like or here is what I wish

[51:47]

or request other person can always say no you're not going to make a demand right other person can say no but at least you've said something so you have to say something that's actually doable so you can't even in a way you can't say I'd like you to be more understanding or I'd like you to be more appreciative or I'd like you to listen better what would indicate that the person is listening better so it takes a kind of effort to do this but I find it for myself very useful in thinking about what to say to somebody is that at least if I go through for myself in my own mind this is what I observed what did I actually observe and this is also dharmic because there's no way to argue about any of these things if you say you have a bad attitude

[52:52]

then the other person will say no I don't yes you do no I don't and you're trying to establish in that kind of language you try to establish what is reality you're trying to convince the other person that your reality is the correct reality their reality is the incorrect reality and they should be stuck with your reality you have a bad attitude or and this is especially true of any kinds of statements that say always and never when I make a suggestion you never you never you never take it up you never agree to do it or when I make a suggestion you always tell me to get lost so what is that what kind of that doesn't really communicate that just antagonizes

[53:53]

the other person what do you mean never always now you put the other person on the defensive if you want them actually to consider the suggestion that's a kind of you know guilt-tripping now you're trying to make them feel guilty so that the only way that they could not feel guilty is agree to this suggestion that you're making now anyway this is so there's no there's no argument about this it's what I observed here's what I observed okay here's what I observed and here's what I thought now what you know if I say you know I don't think that's appropriate you know when you you threw that food away and I don't think that's appropriate or you know I don't think that's what we should be doing with you know the food and

[54:58]

if I if it's clear that it's something I thought that's not we're not talking about reality now talking about but it is a fact that I thought it or you know I think you're irresponsible and I think you're responsible is different than saying something you're so irresponsible and if you specify a an incident and then you say I think that what you did on that occasion is irresponsible that's different than saying you are irresponsible you are an irresponsible person know what you're saying is this is also then this way to be careful about you know not attacking the person but talking about here's this incident where you threw that food away

[56:01]

say that's irresponsible but that's not saying that the person's irresponsible that's different than saying you're so irresponsible or I can't trust you you know without something to specify it and then to say I can't trust you is different than saying or I don't think I can trust you is different than saying you're someone who can be trusted see we're trying to talk about so in a sense we're trying to just say reveal myself reveal my experience to the world and it's different than trying to establish some reality and if somebody says to me oh Ed you're so irresponsible okay I have to fight right no I'm not you're just setting up for an argument

[57:03]

if somebody says to me when you did such and such that was irresponsible then I can say oh but then see how nice this is because we're all the time in this business of trying to notice there's no inherent being right so how about some language that acknowledges no inherent being so you don't talk about some inherent being or angry being it's on such and such an occasion I was angry on such and such an occasion I was irresponsible on such and such an occasion this on such and such an occasion that but then you're not stuck with trying to prove to the world that no I'm not an angry person or no I'm not or to yourself no I'm not irresponsible yes I am competent and you can step out of forcing this reality on you that you feel like you have to submit to does this make sense

[58:09]

am I making so it's really so we're trying to make this is a dharmic statement to say what I noticed what I observed here's what I think here's what I feel here's what I would like here's what I wish and wishing something that's actually doable you know in some observable way and so it's if you say again just to point out the dharmic truth of it is if it's what you think nobody can say like if somebody says well you have no reason to think that it doesn't really matter does it it's still what I think and I don't need a reason to think it you have no reason to feel that way I don't see how you could feel that way I don't see how you could think that but the fact but isn't there is there a fact or not aren't you the expert

[59:10]

on what you felt what you feel what you think how can somebody and the fact that somebody else tells you I don't see how you could think that well I don't see how you could feel that way what's wrong with you anyway you know but there's this dharmic truth to it excuse me but I'm the expert on how I felt at that time and then what I thought you know and I'm telling you what I felt what I thought you know we're not talking about reality something to argue about it's just the fact is here's how I felt here's what I thought here's what I would like these are dharmic facts they're not arguable did you or did you not feel that way and you're the expert each of us is the expert so Dogen says in terms of if you're getting into an argument Dogen says if you're getting into an argument

[60:11]

he says don't try to win don't try to defeat the other person this doesn't mean that you should abandon your own point of view it doesn't mean in other words that you should abandon the dharmic facts of what your experience is and this is what happens in various kinds of relationships a number of people have talked about because something is happening with their parents you know as a child we end up having to abandon you know our truth abandon you know our thought our feeling what we noticed we noticed something is wrong and then mom and dad say are we a happy family you know don't we all love one another and you're not supposed to talk

[61:13]

about what you actually noticed you're not supposed to talk about the fact that you're unhappy so you know many of us as we grow up we have to we're asked to abandon our dharmic truth and in meditation practice and in terms of this kind of precept about communication or truth or not to tell an untruth or not to lie you know in a very deep way we're trying to re-own repossess our own truth the truth of our being the truth of what I notice what I think what I feel and that's a truth whether or not it's sort of somebody else agrees with it or it makes any difference to anybody else it's still your truth and so Dogen says don't abandon that

[62:14]

you should still you put that out in the world but you don't try to defeat the other person with it but you want to make that visible and you want to make it visible in terms of and so of course the other side of this is sometimes if somebody says something to you and you kind of go like where did that come from other thing you can do is ask somebody wait a minute what did you actually notice is there something in particular that is bringing this up for you and so

[63:21]

because it will be much more useful if the person can say you know if somebody says you don't respect me and then it's sort of like wait was there something in particular happen see that's the kind of statement we tend to make these kind of big statements big universal statements you don't respect me well can we talk about was there something in particular that happened and just because that happened does it mean that I don't respect you okay I can see how now that we talk about it if you bring up well when I asked you the other day about could I talk with you and you told me that you were just too busy to talk with me well yeah okay

[64:23]

I can understand how you know well at the time I was kind of busy and I was anxious and I had all these things to do I'm really sorry so if you if you can actually talk about specific things occasions then something you can talk about and then you're also not stuck with some reality this big reality like oh my god I'm an irresponsible person oh my god they think I'm irresponsible or they think I don't respect them but I respect them I had this one of the most amazing to me communication things that happened when it's at Green's I worked at Green's for about four and a half years and there was one person who was working at Green's who always felt like we didn't respect her I was one of the managers finally Renee and I were co-managers after Karin stopped being manager and Karin had been the founding manager

[65:26]

and it's interesting the things that people are to me it's always kind of interesting who people are some people are much more interested in communication than other people are not they don't care about communication so one of the things Renee and I did was to go around and kind of pick people up after they've been leveled by somebody else boy you really don't know how to work do you you're so lazy god I can't trust you with anything you know and we'd sort of go around and say we really appreciate your being here boy is it great having you here yeah we know the cook just gets she does get emotional doesn't she she's really trying hard you know but there was one woman who was working at Green's who no matter what we did she always kind of

[66:29]

had this feeling like you don't respect me and of course no matter I mean at some level you have to we've been talking tonight you have to understand that who is it that's not respecting who some part of her doesn't respect her and no matter what she does some part of her doesn't respect her and how is she going to get that part of her to respect her and some part of her is you know telling her various things and demeaning her in some way well how do we fit into this right you can't just you can't tell somebody that so we put her on staff and we have her come to all the meetings and make all the decisions outside the meetings I'm not being included I'm being excluded you're excluding me so finally one day I say

[67:31]

I am at my wit's end I have done this and [...] I don't know what else to do to convince you that we respect you we want to include you do you have any idea what can I do please tell me she said well when you come to work in the morning you could say good morning to me isn't that just isn't that fascinating isn't that wonderful but that's a perfect example of he says good morning to her and her and him and him he doesn't say good morning to me what does that mean what does that tell me and this is the sort of thing that we do

[68:36]

we take little bits and pieces of information and we create a big reality I'm not respected I'm not included where did that come from it came from all these little bits and pieces of experience is it true you know they don't respect me I'm not included what about these little bits and pieces can we say what the little bits and pieces are and can you know when you come to work in the morning could you say good morning to me I would appreciate it very much if you said good morning to me when you came to work oh thank you for telling me did it help yeah actually it did it kind of it was kind of a breakthrough in a way it's probably getting fairly late

[69:54]

do you want to I have about 8.50 I've kind of run through what I have to talk about I've talked about a lot of things and it may have been a little too much or maybe not anyway it's just my want do with it what you will see if it's of any use to you but anyway if you have things you that it's brought up for you you want to talk about now we can take another few minutes or we can call time and go to bed okay so I'm going to penance your past penance what are the words may our intention

[70:55]

equally penetrate everything

[70:59]

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