to remember and accept. I love to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Well, tonight I thought I don't know how many more of these classes there's going to be, so I made a decision to skip lightly over precept number two about do not take what is not given, and go on to subject precept number three, which seemed like we should certainly get to number three at least in the course of our endeavors, since three is the one that involves sexual misconduct. A disciple of the Buddha does not commit sexual misconduct, however it's worded,

[01:03]

and one of the things that might be useful for us, and certainly any of you who are interested, I would love it if any of you would like to write down your own versions of these precepts, because you know at various times we've talked about this, and it also comes up in terms of the teacher-student precept, or the teacher-student, or priest and students, and the sexual relationship, those sexual relationships that involve teacher-student, and that of course these days, I spent two or three hours this morning, I read up in the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, and the Turning Wheel, and some newspaper from somebody in Colorado, and you know on all this, the American Buddhist Reform Movement, it's a big issue these days.

[02:07]

I couldn't find the recent cop, the recent windmill that came out, so that I could, you know, sort of read the statement from Zen Center, which the Zen, the Abbots Council made, which said that something like, students who come to Zen Center can be assured that their teachers will not, you know, become sexually involved with them, which seemed a little kind of, you know, like a money-back guarantee, or I mean, how is this going to be assured, you know, and, but it was partly, you know, the spirit was there, but you know, there's an example of where the wording was, the wording seemed a little bit funny, so like people in Europe said to me, what's been happening at Zen Center, that you need to say this, and it wasn't, you know, somehow it didn't have the context that it sort of made sense, whatever the statement was. Anyway, I thought tonight again, I would be interested to, you know, I want to give you a chance to talk

[03:12]

and express your sense about this precept, and, but I'd like to, you know, offer a few things to, you know, first of all, before we do that. Anyway, it does seem to be, you know, as far as the wording, who, you know, some say, any people who are interested, I would love to see, you know, any suggestions you have, and one of the things that we could do, certainly as a group, if you would like, and if we had the opportunity with one or two more classes, is that we could, we could kind of, you know, work out our own kind of, you know, version. I also heard a little bit, you know, I haven't been at Zen Center regularly over the last few years, so there was some talk about how I've been around various discussions a little bit, that people's, people having some, students here having some feeling that

[04:17]

at times some, you know, commandment or precept or something or other comes down from on high, without much discussion of, you know, what is, what is actually our community's understanding or sense of precept like this. So I thought this would be, you know, some opportunity for us to have a little feeling about that. Thich Nhat Hanh said probably we should have a long retreat to think about this, you know, this precept. Anyway, I thought I would read to you, you know, basically the precept is do not commit sexual misconduct. For a while, as you may know, Zen Center, the precept was changed, and it was probably, you know, the abbot who wanted it worded a little bit differently, and it said a disciple of the Buddha does not misuse the senses, which is sort of an example of. I was just wondering if you could talk about us writing

[05:22]

some, bringing in our own versions of these precepts that we're addressing. Are they, is this a translation of some text that we're doing? I mean, I've read several versions of precepts, and some of them are radically different, and nobody seems to say where they come. Where they come from, yeah. Where they come from. Yeah. I haven't, Bodhidharma's precept was translated by my teacher, and it is a vastly different emphasis than what's being discussed about here. Yeah. So I'm not, I'm not sure. It's not basically moralistic, which seems to be a lot of the direction here. Well, partly this is the, I'm not the, you know, I don't know the official text,

[06:25]

but the, you know, anybody who's had in our tradition here at Zen Center, either the lay initiation, and Sona Raksun received a Buddhist name, takes these five precepts, and anybody who's had priest ordination takes the ten, what are called the ten grave prohibitory precepts, which are the first five of which are these five. Everybody takes the ten. Oh, now everybody takes the ten. It used to be that the first ordination, you just took the first five. So it's in some, it's, I think it's in, you know, some scripture somewhere. I'm not sure where exactly it is. Well, the Vinaya, the Vinaya is, has the original precepts that the Buddha gave all the monks. So it doesn't, in that there's the 227 or 257 or whatever it is, and all the stories about how those came to be. Because he started out with not that many, and then as incidents came up, they had, you know, more specifically, not just disciples of, you know,

[07:30]

that you, you don't have sexual intercourse, but you don't have it with pigs and goats and dogs. So somebody must have been, you know, there's, you know, some, you know, monks come and complain that some other monks are misbehaving, and is this okay? You know, so then they have, so there's a, there's a new precept based on the fact that, that, you know, some, some new behaviors come to light that didn't seem to be originally necessary to, you know, specify in the original precept. So they're added on to like that. But in the beginning there were no precepts. That could be. Buddha walking around, he sort of developed out of necessity in the first one. Yeah. Are they arranged chronologically? Yeah, so I think those, well, so I'm not sure exactly, because they haven't studied it in detail, but they're more or less than I think it's, in a kind of, I think there's some basic ones, and then they're kind of in chronological order

[08:32]

in the stories that go along with it. So you're also supposed to not, as a monk, you know, have intercourse with a hole in the ground. You're not, you know, I mean, it's that specific at some point, because, you know, first it's just people, and then animals, and then holes. But some precepts or third precepts don't even mention the word sexuality. Well, that's what, and that's, so I, that's where, I think it's a, you know, a useful question, but I don't have the answer tonight. Where is all this coming from? But apparently, the question is about why is the emphasis so moralistic, because that's important. Well, we'd have to, we'd have to look at what's moralistic. Yeah, that's the question, sure. You know, because partly what I've been trying to do, trying to talk about is, why, and especially in the first class we did, why are there precepts, and then how do we,

[09:34]

how do we think about functioning them with them? Why would we have such a thing, and then how do we use them in our life? Or is it possible to function without them? Or is it possible to function without them, and what happens then, and so on? And so that's, I think that's a useful question at some point, and I've certainly thought about it. I just wanted to say that there is sort of a textual tradition, and I, again, I don't know any more than you about, you know, the whole history of it, but in which, you know, sexuality is specifically mentioned, and these precepts are phrased in a way, at least very similar to the way that we take them, like, you know, the formula, and so on. So, you know, in the, all of the sutras, and I just ran across the list in the Perfection of Wisdom in a Thousand Minds, it's in there, you know, and there are different sort of formulations of it, but these

[10:37]

five, at least, are very, are very common. I mean, they're throughout the Buddhist scriptures, and there may be, you know, different ways of phrasing them, but very frequently they're phrased as, you know, not lying, not killing, not stealing, not misusing sexuality. And aren't, aren't they, aren't the ones that we're translating, that Kofun's translating, that, that Beggar Roshi translated, all the different translations that sort of are floating around the world, the Buddhist world we live in, aren't those all coming from a set of precepts that the Soto Shu uses? Well, it's not just Soto Shu, because it's much wider in Buddhism. Well, I realize that it's wider, but what we're trying to translate, are we translating the, from the Japanese? I'm assuming that these translations that we're using are coming from the Japanese, which then brings up the question that he's bringing up, are we specifically translating them more moralistically? Is Kofun translating them less moralistically? You know,

[11:41]

it would be an interesting thing to discover the kinds of, what, what are the words in Japanese, and then how are we, how are we translating them into English? I'd like to make a suggestion at this point. None of us seem to be, and I certainly don't, seem to have, you know, the scholastic background here to be able to answer the question, and I don't think it's actually so important or relevant to our discussion. And I'd also like to suggest that what I would find most useful, and what I think would be most useful for all of us, if, is rather than bringing up the question, why do we have these things? Why are they so moralistic? Is if you would just, if you would make a statement, and say, my understanding or my belief is that we could practice Buddhism without any of this, if that's what you think, you know.

[12:42]

Or what I think is useful in the practice of Buddhism is, and make a statement. I mean, to some extent I can, you know, I can respond to the question, but I also feel a little bit, you know, sort of, I can't, I can't resolve all the doubts or something, you know, like say, why are these things here? Well, they've been around for centuries, folks. You know, so, but I can't, I can't really answer it, and I'd be in a sense, you know, in that sense more, what I would think would be interesting for us is for, for when we talk, and I was going to bring this up anyway, but when we talk, to say, here's what I think, rather than saying that what somebody else thinks, you know, I don't agree with so-and-so, and I think that that's, you know, stupid to think like that. And now, I wanted us to be careful about, you know, saying, you know, saying something that

[13:44]

refers to something somebody else said in any kind of, in any kind of sense like that. So, I'd like to, I'd like to try to concentrate on our making some statement of my, what, what is my understanding? What to, here's what I understand, here's what I believe, here's what I think, here's what I, how I would like to, what would be useful for me in my life, and so on. And so, it doesn't have to be, does that make sense? Yes. Okay. And so, it can be saying, well, I don't, I don't think we need this, or here's how I would understand it, or, you know, anything. So, anyway, since Larry did bring up the question, I'll just say in a, you know, I'd like to respond to it in a kind of brief way, but I don't want to get into a long discussion of that as the

[14:49]

main focus of the evening, because I also want to give, you know, people a chance to say various things. In some ways, I think, you know, Buddhism or Zen, basically just say, well, be aware, be mindful, in the moment, see what's going on. But somehow it doesn't quite, it's somehow not quite enough. You know, then you go about your life, and there still seems to be suffering, and you're trying to be aware, and so, somehow, at some point, it seems to be useful to say, well, why don't I, why don't we sit down, and we'll hit three bells, and then we'll sit there quietly for 40 minutes, and then we'll hit a bell or two, and we'll get up. Let's give this structure of being, you know, mindful, or aware, or something like, well, let's give it some structure, let's give this practice some structure. Then you go out into the world, and, like, does

[15:52]

anything happen? Is it different out in the world now? Anyway, somehow, it, for most of us, most of us human beings, it seems like we, at some point in our life, we need a structure, and then there's the question of, like, how do you use structure in your life? And we all know that a structure that is not responsive to who I am, it is just a kind of fixed structure, and especially one that somebody else's, and has been dumped on me. That kind of fixed structure, I can have a lot of problems with, and it doesn't seem to change, and it doesn't seem to respond to who I am, and somebody's, but somebody's dumped it on me, and said, this is the structure that you should be going by, which is not to, which is different than, you know, is any kind of structure useful in my life? This is partly why I bring up, well, let's see what we would say as far as, like, the

[16:55]

structure that I think might be useful for me, or for us? You know, what about that structure? So the problem with structure doesn't seem to be structure per se, but that it becomes misused, and it's rigidified, and it's fixed, and it's imposed from outside, and it's not something that I willingly, in some way, take on. When you become, when you get married, or, you know, at various times, we have a kind of situation where one willingly, in a sense, takes on some structure, and when you sign up for practice period, you're agreeing to take on, for a certain period of time, some structure, a certain, you know, the structure of the practice here, but then you don't say, this is the structure of my life from now on, and you'd also don't say, when I go to the grocery store, I'm going to walk in shashu. When I walk down the street, I'm going to take one step with each breath, and so on. You know, so there's some, there's some sense we have of, where is it used, where, like, where we,

[18:01]

we, and part of, part of practice, in some sense, then, is that I can pick up a structure and use it in the appropriate circumstances, for the appropriate use, and then I can set it aside, and then I pick up other structures in other circumstances, other, you know, sort of forms, or something. So that's part of why I wanted to, want to look at all these, is so that we have some chance to think about the, you know, the basic, this is a very basic question. The usefulness of form, or structure, or precepts, how, how does it function for us in a useful way, and how does it kind of misfunction for us? One of my most, as far as that goes, one of my most, and the thing in my life that I feel most ashamed about, is having been in a relationship, and trying so hard to satisfy the third precept of having love, and a long-term commitment, that

[19:02]

basically, I got quite involved in lying. First of all, I had to lie to myself, that it was a long-term relationship, and I had to lie to the other person. You know, so I ended up, actually, in my effort to follow the third precept, I ended up being quite, quite bad at, you know, breaking the fourth precept, quite badly, which wasn't the idea, you know, but in our effort to follow a precept, we can, you know, have that kind of, you know, problem. So, before we, but before we get going, why don't I, let me read you, I think I may have read one of Thich Nhat Hanh's versions before, and I mentioned, you know, they've gotten more, but this is a, so this is a more sort of full-blown version here.

[20:04]

So, this is the Thich Nhat Hanh's version, aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct. So, he's put it in the context of, well, these are here because without something like this, we have suffering, which may or may not be good, you know. We'll talk about that some, too. I mean, I, well, anyway, let me just go through this. Aware of the suffering caused by sexual misconduct, I vow to cultivate my sense of responsibility in order to protect the safety and integrity of individuals, couples, families, and society. I am determined not to engage in sexual relations without love and a long-term commitment, which, as I mentioned, is sense-term change to a lifelong commitment. To preserve the happiness of myself and others, I am determined to respect my commitments and the commitments of others. I will do everything in my power to protect children from sexual abuse and to prevent couples and families from being broken by sexual misconduct. So, this is a rather, you know, sort of all-encompassing,

[21:14]

um, but, um, as I think I mentioned in the first week, his precepts are coming from having done, you know, many, many retreats now with, here in America and in France, and hearing from people what the suffering has been in their life. And it's also coming from observing Buddhist groups and what's happened to Buddhist groups, especially when, um, teachers have, uh, so to speak, broken this precept. My first thought was, well, what does that mean? The words just don't quite make any sense.

[22:18]

In his attempt to make things more specific, he's actually being more ambiguous. And some things are beyond his power that he can't do, even though it's his intent, so it seems to me. How is lifelong commitment ambiguous? That seems pretty clear. Well, I think this is more of an integrity. What I mean by that is, if I make a lifelong commitment to someone, what does that mean? I'm committing to what? Am I committing to, what does it mean? Am I committing to not getting involved in a sexual relationship with someone else? That's what I'm talking about. Am I committing to, um, yeah, I'm committing to, uh, sort of sticking to an argument, you know, if difficulty arises, am I committing to not running away? What is it? I mean, to me it's a really interesting question. What is it, what ultimately can we make an honest commitment to? What can I say honestly?

[23:27]

I'm not going to make a commitment to a person without practice or, you know, anything. What can I actually say that I can do? Pardon? Something occurred to me when you said, what you said a moment ago about, about missing, missing, messing up on the fourth one because of trying to repeat the first one. What occurred to me was, uh, that if you have to break one badly in order to follow the other, then perhaps the definition of the other is askew. That that might be a way to, a way to look at, at our piece of following. If, if, if, if that keeps happening, then there may be something askew in the, in the definition of misconduct.

[24:30]

Um, so it sounds like, um, there's more I can talk about or we can go ahead and, you know, uh, but I don't seem to get very far and then it seems like, you know, people have plenty of things they'd like, you'd like to talk about. So, uh, at least for the time being, um, if, if there are some, uh, things you'd like to express, um, I mean, I, I would like to, again, I appreciate your bringing up the question, Pam, because it is very similar in some ways to Larry's question. Um, you know, what, what, what can I make a commitment to honestly? And so, you know, is, can anybody take a stab at it? You know, what can we commit ourself to doing and what would be a useful commitment in one's life? And how, how do we say that and how can we, in that sense, then, you know, encourage myself because this is the commitment that I can, that I want to make. How

[25:42]

do I encourage myself and how do I support somebody else in the commitment they've made for the kind of life they want to live? And, and also how do I, uh, when it's appropriate, it seems like there are some times when it would be useful to go to somebody and say, you know, I, um, uh, from, at least from where I am, uh, I, I think you're, I think you're missing, you know, something here and I, I don't think you're following through on what your commitment was. Uh, and, uh, because at some point it's based on, you know, something that we really do believe in. I mean, we're, we practice, you know, as I mentioned in the first class, some very basic way is practice, practicing is to put an end to suffering, to, uh, to, uh, be happy in one's life and to promote happiness. And we don't always go about it in a very useful or helpful way. We get

[26:48]

confused. I've certainly been confused in my life and, uh, times of greater confusion seem to sort of, the suffering sort of seems to spread out. And, um, uh, maybe now's a good time if I share with you one of my conversations with one of our teachers about this. I did, I talked to Katagiri Rishi once and I said, you know, this was when I was, uh, I had been the, uh, Tantra for the practice period in the spring and I was here for the summer. And as you know, in the summer, there are many beautiful people here, both men and women, and a lot of them tend to not have very much clothes on. And especially if you go down to the pool, um, both men and women have rather often very little clothing on. And one is, one can, if one, if one's eyes go in that kind of direction, um, one can become aware of rather, you know, generous amounts of

[27:55]

flesh. And, um, excuse me? You noticed too. Yeah. And, um, also, um, uh, somehow, uh, at least that summer, um, being in a kind of teaching position, I seem to attract a certain kind of interest. So for instance, uh, there was a very, uh, there was a young, beautiful, uh, woman here that summer who was a student and she said, um, I'd like to sleep with you. And I said, you know, but I, excuse me, but you know, I don't, uh, I'm not interested in a relationship with you. And she said, we don't have to have a relationship. Um, why didn't you support me, you know? So, um, and later on, she, um, that summer she became pregnant and she's named her daughter,

[29:09]

the name of my daughter. She named her daughter Lichen. Um, but I am not the father, excuse me, but, um, anyway, I went to, I happened to be up in the city at one point, the category where she was the abbot of Zen Center that year. So I went to see him. I paid my respects. I explained, you know, um, here at Tessera in the summertime, when I just explained to you, I didn't tell him about the young student, but I did explain about how there's a fair amount of flesh if your eyes happen to be open in that direction. And I said, um, and you say your advice is practice as the ancients practiced. And so I said, did the ancients have a Tessera guest season?

[30:12]

And he said, no, they didn't. And then I said, so how can I, since we have a Tessera guest season, how can I practice as the ancients practiced? And he said, even if you can't practice as the ancients practiced, you should still keep their practice in mind. It's a fairly good, you know, traditional kind of answer. Very good. So then I said, you know, um, uh, sometimes I do get a little, I get kind of tend to get kind of attractions, you know, attracted to women and, um, they're at Tessera, but, you know, I also have a girlfriend here in San Francisco. He said, in that case, that's just greed. He seemed so clear about it. It seemed very clear to him, you know, it's so clear, you know, that,

[31:27]

that is greed. That is greed. I didn't sort of, I didn't realize what seemed very natural to me. You know, this is phenomena, it's naturally a lot arising in my being. It seems very normal. It doesn't seem like greed. Um, but, so I happened to have been reading the Blue Cliff Record and in there at various points, and at least, at least in one place anyway, it says, every moment is a gateway which Avalokiteshvara enters the truth. Every moment can be a gate, is a gateway for Avalokiteshvara, for the heart of compassion, to enter the truth. So I said, isn't every moment a moment for Avalokiteshvara, the heart of compassion, to enter the truth? He said, in that case, you better get in there right away. Okay. But, you know, we can't always, I mean, just be in the truth, you know, I mean,

[32:40]

and things are arising and isn't, you know, somehow isn't, isn't practicing with, learning how to practice with greed important, you know, to, you know, whether it's, you know, to understand that and to, you know, our practice isn't just, you know, as I've told you, you know, just sort of like I turn the Dharma, you know, and it's not sometimes the Dharma turns, we have to practice under all circumstances, not just the one where things are going well, you know, fine, right? And then I try to stay out of those areas where it's not practice, right? No, I have to practice all the time. So I said, but, you know, isn't there some time when, you know, it's important, you know, to sort of practice in this area, to be with that kind of experience? And so then he said, I can't remember, maybe I said something else first, but then anyway, he said, look, look, you can do whatever you want, but you better be fully prepared to take all the consequences.

[33:49]

And that was very nice. It was very simple, very to the point, you know, you can do whatever you want, but you should know that whatever you do, there's consequences and please be ready for them. And please accept them, you know, when they come. I thought that's pretty good. And, oh, I guess what he had said at one point too was, before we got to that, what he had said was something like, well, yeah, sometimes you may do something, you may get involved with greed,

[34:52]

but once you realize it, you should stop it as soon as possible. And then it was after that, you know, I said something and he said, okay, well, fine. You know, you don't have to take this on as, well, somebody said to do this and not to do this, just you should know that when you act in the world, there's consequences and be ready for them. And so, in a sense, the precepts are some place where, in that sense, there's consequences that we tend to overlook. Sexual, you know, relationships are one of those areas. It all seems so kind of simple, but I, you know, any of us who've had a relationship, you know that as soon as you go to bed with somebody, the relationship changes. Why? Something happens and there's these sort of consequences and the whole world and everything changes. And so, in that sense, these precepts are, there's consequences that you might not

[36:01]

have thought of, that you might be overlooking. But here's an example, too, of somebody says, well, that's greed. And is it greed? Or somebody can say, oh, well, that's misconduct. Somebody else says, no, my mind is a field of blessedness with wisdom constantly arising. What could be the problem? Do you have some problem? You better work on it. It's called sort of weaving a spell, you know, something like that. Anyway, your turn.

[37:04]

I'm kind of interested, I mean, it may be interesting if you, as far as commitment, when I think about it, I mean, it seems to me that what I've noticed anyway in my life is that sexual relationships without a kind of context of a larger context of a kind of relationship, they actually don't, they're not conducive to any real change in one's life. So, in that sense, it's a kind of temporary kind of solution or it's almost like a kind of fix. You know, it's a temporary kind of, life isn't so interesting and you can have a, and then, you know, there's actually a term for this, then we say, this is a sexual exploit. And then, we actually call it that. And that means, you know, which is different than nurture, right?

[38:18]

Wendell Berry's made this, you know, the unsettling of America is primarily based on this distinction between what is exploitation, what is nurturing. Nurturing means you use something and you don't take care of it in such a way that it's there in some ongoing way on into the future. It's exploitation. Exploitation, yeah, exploitation, yeah. And nurturing means it's something that you tend and abide with and live with over time and use and tend. And in his understanding, then, the part of what's happening in America is a big emphasis on sort of the mindset of exploitation as opposed to the mindset of nurturing. And it shows up, this is just one of the areas where it shows up. It also shows up in business and, you know, many places. And in that sense, then,

[39:19]

certainly in my experience, again, there's not any, in an exploitation, in a relationship of exploitation, there's not any real sort of growth in that sense or change. And so, then, one can depend on or rely on something that is not actually conducive to anyone's real growth or development. There's not actual nurturing going on. Now, maybe that's not bad, you know, I mean, we all have various kinds of experience, but it does seem that in some circumstances, certainly, it's very bad. I mean, I know people who have committed suicide because of being rejected or because, you know, their relationship hasn't worked out or because of a history of sexual relationships that, over time, you know, it's not dependable, it's not a dependable place to find your well-being and satisfaction and happiness

[40:25]

in a kind of, you know, if it's one relationship after another, it doesn't seem like a dependable place to have, you know, sustenance or nurturing or growth. So, I know people that have died because of that. And in some instances, in some sense, it's sort of their own choice, what could, you know, one do, exactly. And obviously, in something like that, there's a multiplicity of causes, and it's not just any one relationship or any one thing, but there's definitely harm that can come, and families breaking up, you know, there's definitely harm here. So, we can't just say, oh, you know, fine. But maybe it would be useful for us if we think about, you know, what do you think about, is it better we could talk about just in the context of Zen Center? I

[41:26]

mean, what do you think is a good guideline for students at Tassajara? Or are our guidelines good guidelines? Or what about teacher-student relationships? Is that, you know, is there, does that sound, do the guidelines we have seem appropriate? And that sort of thing. Maybe it's more useful to talk about something closer to home. But whatever you sort of feel is fine. I just have a reaction to Thich Nhat Hanh's use of time period, because for me, in any of the precepts, so much more of what is heartfelt for me comes from the intention of the precept rather than boxing it in in some way. I think the idea of a lifelong commitment. I feel like I have seen people die within a lifelong commitment. They have tried so hard to keep their commitment in a relationship that does not promote or sustain growth for either one of them, that

[42:29]

they've withered. And so, I think, for me, sexual expression with a partner has to be understood in terms of what your intention is, what aspect of your person are you expressing, and are you nurturing yourself in that person? And I'm not advocating that you justify that in terms of many short-term relationships, that I think maybe understanding is more important than putting a time frame. That wherever it is that you find yourself in a relationship, that you be clear and honest with yourself and your partner as to what your intention is and what your expression is with your personal body. Yes? It seems like one aspect of forming a sexual union with another person is that, in a sense, you are expanding yourself

[43:44]

or you're making a commitment to something larger than yourself. So, you're not just making a commitment to nurture some aspect of yourself, but you're actually making a commitment to everything that is not yourself, sort of, as the whole rest of the world comes forward to you in the form of one other person. And so, it comes out of this function of procreation, of giving, creating new life, which we can only do with another person. And as human beings, we sort of have this interesting capacity and desire to have sex not just for that purpose. As much as the Pope would like it to be otherwise, we do have sex for some purpose other than just to make babies. And yet, in a sense, there is this quality of getting together

[44:51]

with another person in order to create something that wasn't there before. And then what that life does, you're procreating, whether or not an egg is actually fertilized, you're procreating something and giving it out into the world. And that's what you make a commitment to. And then what happens, what that child does, you don't have any control over, in some sense, or you offer your limited self up to that larger life. And there is great suffering in that. That's why Thich Nhat Hanh starts out by saying, aware of the suffering of the other. And that's a big commitment. Whether we want it to be or not, we can fool ourselves into thinking it is or not. But eventually, that's going to come back, I don't know.

[45:53]

When I think back over various passionate or not passionate relationships that I've had in my life, those of you who have had sexual intercourse and have not been, and probably the most painful, closest to wanting to commit suicide relationship I ever had, was wanting to do sex in an adventure. Though, sort of programming the game, because there was such intense, convulsive passion from my part, the fact that the other person would not engage sexually was very painful. But as a result of that relationship, and as a result of watching people be seduced by other people, I sometimes think that we get confused in this

[47:00]

whole subject as to what it is that's so hurtful, and what it is that's the subject. And sometimes I think it is sex. I think sex becomes, as you said, you go to bed with someone, the relationship changes. And yet, I do look back to sex with somebody back when I was young, in which it was crying out in a one-night stand, so to speak, somewhat promiscuous. And yet, nobody got hurt whatsoever. It was a sort of another way of learning something about who's to report. And so that was a lesson to be learned. And as I look at, and now being in a permanent, lifelong committed relationship, I think a lot about what in those terms is misuse or not misuse

[48:02]

of sexuality. And of course, the relationship itself has rules, stated or unstated. And one of those sets of rules is that we only do it with each other. So that would be misuse, because that would be a lie to the relationship. But then it becomes really, really interesting to me to look at, in how do the two of us practice with one another with sex? What many things come up as we meet each other sexually? What kinds of coercions or non-coercions may or may not happen? When is it a loving kindness to go along, even if you're not in the mood? When is it a dishonesty to do that? When is it... sex is so rich as a place for practice that I'm glad we just say misuse sexuality, because it then sets me up to wonder,

[49:09]

day by day, week by week, am I misusing it? Am I using it well? And what have I gotten out of it, given to it? I wanted to just offer my response to the non-controversial, because I've always felt really attracted to this research, and I'm not interested in this idea of commitment

[50:13]

as Pam brought up, but it actually goes through all of his research, and it's really important to hear that. And he's constantly mentioning commitment to seeing that other people don't break their precepts, to seeing that other people don't break their precepts. And I think that's something I don't have so much access to. And commitment is really important to him. I just wanted to say that I really feel that he's doing this because in his experience with our culture, and it seems that they're really directed a lot towards our culture, it seems like Americans, we really don't have a lot of difficulty seeing through with our intentions. And it's sort of the natural result of the positive side that we do have, which is this incredible freedom. And this particular precept seems

[51:18]

to be a really good example, because sexuality in this country recently has been really changed, and I'm young, so I was really around Western sexual revolution, but from what my understanding is, there used to be, in our culture, a real prohibited kind of attitude towards sexuality, and most people began to feel at a certain time that this was inhibiting us and preventing us from experiencing an aspect of ourselves fully. So there was this great opening up, and it's a wonderful thing. It brought about incredible new experiences and opened up another dimension to who we are. And I think our culture has this quality to do this sort of thing, not just with sexuality, but with all sorts of different issues. And it's wonderful, but of course every time we do this, it brings in the potential for all sorts of awful misuses

[52:23]

and abuses and exploitations. It couldn't happen in a more prohibited or cultural context. So it seems like with sexuality what happened is all this freedom came in, and it's so wonderful and beautiful, but then all this exploitation. And now, just walking around cities, being a juror won't be worth it anyway. It's incredible. It's just unbelievable. So I think the reason it got hot is so insistent on commitment and on these things that really rub us the wrong way. They seem moralistic and they seem oppressive and they seem lifelong commitment. Oh, it seems to really go against the grain of our tendency in America to really open up and liberate and be free. I think we really have to be honest and sort of look at that carefully and see if we're doing it right. Because I certainly feel it's really important for us,

[53:28]

I'm really positive that we are that way, that we have this quality. But I also think we need to be a little bit more sure that we have that. Certainly in our culture, sexuality is really congenerated in this area where there's so little commitment, and there's so little that it's a real extreme problem. And it's because of this experience of this directly, you say, that it's pretty self-explanatory. And I don't think it's trying to make itself, you know, make huge lifelong commitments. Yeah. Well, let me just say one thing about that, which is,

[54:30]

and it relates also to, well, how do we say anything? Can we say something? Did it make sense to us? And so that also relates to, and it's something that he's very interested in then. He has people do this. And so part of, you know, these precepts is also coming out of the fact that people have written down what they would like to commit themselves to. So in a way, his precepts are a compilation of an ongoing process of talking to people about what are the kinds of commitments that they'd like to make. And what he says at times is, you know, I think it's probably, you know, that if you can write the precepts in a way that they don't sound like commandments and don't sound moralistic, great. You know, and that's going to be useful for a lot of people. But they need to have

[55:35]

some clarity and some kind of, you know, otherwise, you know, at some point if they don't have a kind of clarity or straightforwardness or simplicity of some sort, they're just kind of vague and amorphous and then it doesn't sort of apply. Where do you ever apply it? So it's actually, you know, it is rather difficult problem to say something that's clear and yet doesn't sound like a commandment or moralistic or laying a trip on somebody. And as I mentioned also the first night, he's also, the problem is you get into the wording of the precept and then you start to lose it. And because the precept sounds a certain way, but he's, again, it's not exactly like you're going to be able to do this. So like, what is, where's your intention? Where's your, you know, what is your fundamental wish? And, or, you know, can you keep the practice of the ancients in mind or whatever it is that, what do you come back to? And it's so, and that you, that the precept is there,

[56:40]

you know, have you made some effort to be examining this in your life? You don't have, you don't say yes, you don't say no. It's just like, it's something there. It's a kind of reference point. It's a kind of structure that you can, or, you know, a statement that you can look at and then kind of, you know, try on. And then you go about your life. It's not like you have to sort of keep it on like it's some kind of straitjacket. And do I get to make this move? No. Okay. And it's not like you have to feel like it's something like though, maybe, you know, whether it's every two weeks or it's once a week or it's once a day or something, you pick up and you look at your life through this lens. Or, you know, you try on this thing and then you set it down and, because you can't be doing that all the time. Then you do get into a kind of straitjacket pretty soon. Maybe you're breaking some other precept that you've been saying and so on. Or you're in a long-term committed relationship that you're actually dying, etc.

[57:42]

So it's a lot of that. I mean, that's, so that's both in the language and it's, and it's all, but it's also in what is it to actually practice with the precepts? How does, how does one try to use these ones? When I said, I think I'm going to commit to ask that, I didn't mean it as a way of saying, oh, come on, that's not realistic. What I meant more was that it seems as if, in essence, precepts, however they're rooted, is to use them as a set of the lens. And that's what invited us, asked us, encouraged us, and pushed us to take responsibility for our own life and how we want it.

[58:46]

Whether they're precepts involving violence, hatred, homophobia, and so on. And if we take on a precept like a straitjacket, which is a based idea of what it means, we're not going to be responsible just for what somebody else says about the precept. We say, oh, it's something that I believe you want, the same thing. So, for me, to keep the question aspect of the precept alive is what does it matter? In the precept itself, all of them point, point to some area of both difficulty and potential harm to myself and to somebody else, or to somebody else's. So I'm kind of curious, and you can do whatever you want with the consequences,

[59:53]

I think ultimately that's, so to commit to that is a pretty big commitment, but it means we really have to take on the consequences. So when I think about what can I commit, what can I actually commit to, I often think, well, I'm going to commit to something or the other. And that's helpful, but what's really helpful seems to be to sort of commit to keep showing up, and keep taking responsibility and taking real weight of the consequences of what I do. But sometimes you can't do that very well, you're confused, and then it's nice to have these suggestions that, oh, I'm going to hear you, but I didn't have to do the whole thing. Did you say he had compiled this particular version after many years of discussing it with

[61:02]

his son? Well, he does these workshops in various places, and one of the things he does is, he started out with a fairly simple precept, but then he asked people, you know, what would you say for a precept? So part of what he's come to, finally, has come from, you know, people's, what things that people have brought up. When I say the word lifelong commitment, I immediately think of like a pre-sexual revolution, sexual violence. That's what I thought. It's just, that just seems like a rigid, impositional structure. And it amazes me that his son would accept it. Well, his son goes... Yeah. There's a whole emphasis that he did not want to retreat and work on the family, and I think one of the attitudes, it was not family-oriented, but it was

[62:05]

even in that, he strongly promotes family and children and the practice in the home. And so for me, when I think of his work, it does have, it does have that in its roots. It's very strongly a family oriented practice rather than, I just see him promoting that. And I think that this feeling of lifelong commitment is something that comes really strongly through in that. It's also there to promote. It's saying, to me, it's saying a lot more than just what you do or don't want to do in terms of your use of the sexism, your sexual senses. But it's saying, it's giving discussion to our side of our family. I don't know, I think sometimes with his work, I think that he's, he may be pulling a certain part of our culture, a certain part of our culture that he's not pulling at all.

[63:12]

Let me just invite, you know, people who haven't said anything yet, if there's someone who hasn't said anything who would like to offer something. I find it very interesting with people talking about sexuality, human sexuality. My experience has been that the thoughts that people have about it are totally useless. And I'm talking, I've been very active in workshops that have to do with human sexuality. And when you talk about, when you think about it, it doesn't mean a thing. It's what, you know, what is, what's your experience? If you talk about your experience, your pain, your suffering, and what has happened to it, or how it's affecting your practice. And I look at precepts as being signposts that are pointing to practice, not something to discuss, because whether we take a vote and we agree or disagree, it doesn't mean anything. What means

[64:16]

more is what, how it affects your life. And here, I would say how it's affecting your practice and what problems you're having, because that's the only way to address it. And whether, I agree with what I understand what Pam has said about her interpretation of it, more so than, like, when you were talking, I don't know where you were talking from, it sounded like you were, I agree with your procreation, but if I thought every time I had sex was for procreation, I would say I'm a total liar. I don't agree with you, because there's a time it's been recreation, even in a long-term relationship. And I've been married twice, and my commitment to my first wife was for a long-term relationship, until we got divorced. So that was quite a shock to me. And I found that my long-term relationship, even though it was 12 years, wasn't really a long-term relationship in the interpretation of Han. And yet I don't know

[65:16]

him, I don't know, I heard of his writing, I don't know what he really means by the words he put on paper. It would be interesting to discuss it with him, but I don't have the opportunity. And I think that, as my experience has been, it would be more productive to talk about the problems that we have with these various precepts that come up as it affects us in our everyday life, and as it affects our practice. I am in a monogamous relationship with my wife now, who I dearly love and dearly loves me and supports me, and we have the commitment that it's going to be a monogamous relationship. And I feel very, very strongly about that, even though I find it in some ways to be very painful to have that commitment. But I value her, and I know she values me, that I'm willing to put up with that suffering. Maybe it's a fantasy that my opportunities are

[66:17]

greater than what they are, but I have chosen that even if they aren't there, I'm glad, thank you, that they're not there, because that makes my commitment to her easier to do. But that is based on the experience. And I feel based on the experience, it's something I can work with, by working within my practice, within my city, with what comes up into my mind, and not by my interpretation. And I agree with number three, I don't agree with number four. Five is okay, if you change the word. Preset number six, it's all right, it doesn't apply to me, so I don't really care. It's got to come more into, if you can't actualize it as a preset, forget it. I mean, that's the way I look at it. Coco? I feel better. Now Coco, got anything to say? Thank you. I feel better.

[67:18]

Anyone else who hasn't had a chance to say something yet? Now for something. Yes? I think I agree with Sam, when she was talking about the presets, about taking them in a way that it's to keep your sense of questioning alive, and not taking them as a guideline for anything. I have a feeling that they're just there to keep your sense of questioning alive, and I don't ask myself what her intention is, but it's not, for me it's definitely not a guideline for something. So, yeah.

[68:32]

You know, the fact that I've been sort of moving in these days is the notion that the presets are my best chance of being happy, for sure. They seem to involve me as an experience of restraint, you know, not just a lens. Right, because I'm particularly comfortable some of the time. But there's this kind of hovering, tentative, ill-defined sense that, you know, maybe they are what they're supposed to be, which is a very wise and skillful

[69:58]

direction, in which I may want to orient my life. Assuming that I'm actually some abiding happiness, or a purpose, or something. It's like what I prefer over a generally confused, generally confused, anyway. Not necessarily that happiness isn't the same thing as listening to the steady, steady strings of comfort. There's discomfort involved, you know, running up against restraint.

[71:01]

Can I ask you a question? Okay. Okay. How could you say such a thing? Do you see the presets as somehow very different from the basic sort of agreed-upon moral codes that we all grew up with? You know, everything that I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. I say that humorously and not humorously. It's like, in a sense, when I listened to you, what came up was, yeah, but I always knew that it would be good if I did those things. I mean, those things are so basic to almost all rules of human, humankind has almost always come up with. About these ones, a little different too. So,

[72:11]

Is that disproven? Well, there was something about the way that he put the thing about, I don't know, it felt like it was so specific to these And Buddhism, and I'm wondering if it isn't just the way that... No, what it is is something that's been kind of hard to break. It's this, you know, it's this mix within Buddhism of commitment and emptiness. There's something that is incredibly unfathomable and potentially dynamic in that for me. How do you commit in a situation where there's no ground? And yet, that's what Buddhism proposes, which is like, it's that turning point that for me seems to be like, you know, if I understood something about that, then this kind of, then a lifelong

[73:16]

commitment, there's no way that could ever be stale or deadly or suffocating, right? If I understood that relationship of commitment and emptiness and I haven't run across that anywhere near the kind of articulated sort of way in any sort of religions or sociological or people's practice, right? As I do it, there seems to be, you know, that I'm catching some glimmer of within this Buddhist context. Actually, it's sort of related to that. I ran across this thing the other day in Meaningful and Behold, where someone who takes the precepts, the Tibetans don't really have a word for Buddhist, right? It's more directly translated as an inner being, becoming an inner being, and it's a person who's entered into this palace of Buddhist teachings, right? Which all of a sudden I thought, yeah, I could do that.

[74:17]

I could be an inner being. I don't want to be a Buddhist particularly, right? But so I kind of, you know, explore this thing which is, you know, Buddhist teachings. That seems really alive. So that's what you mean when you say that the only way for a chance to look up at a happy life, I think it's something like that, because you're following the precepts, being engaged with them. Yeah, right. Entering into them. Same level. This is an example of, you know, it might be good and it might not, you know, because I want people to feel safe to say something, and if you get not quite the right kind of question, if you're not quite ready to answer it, and you know, Chris was very ready, which was nice, but otherwise you kind of might go like, you know, you sort of might feel uncomfortable, you know, you know, sort of having put something out and then having

[75:19]

it be kind of questioned in some way. So I, you know, I think this worked out fine, but it's why I want to be a little bit careful about that so that you can say something a little hesitatingly, even, you know, and not have it kind of, you know, and then if you want, you come to the person later and you could ask them about it. So I'm not sure, you know, but I'd like to err on the side of being a little careful this way rather than, you know, kind of having too much kind of going back and forth like that. We're getting a little close to nine. There's a couple of things I want to say, but there's one more person or so who would like to say something. You had something. Did you want to say something, Coda? Oh, yeah, I'm just thinking where I thought Chris was going, but it wasn't, was that these, you talked to some of these Bikus, Vinaya monks, about precepts.

[76:28]

They follow them, literally, and there's a lot of them. It's interesting to talk to them about, well, how does that work for you, you know, how you live, you know, and, um, in some ways, excuse me, see here, I'm interrupting. Go ahead. I'll let you finish, and then I'll, you know, I have my chance to talk at the end, so, you know, like you said, he had the chance to talk. Oh, excuse me. Uh, and it's, uh, they become very committed to it as a formula, actually, for a successful and happy, you know, joyful life. It is the actual, literal following of the precepts. Of course, you need a lot of them. When you get literal, you got to have a lot of them, because, you know, but they lead a simple life, you know, so they keep it down to 300 or something. So, uh, you hear what, you know, what does that mean, or, uh, how do you interpret that?

[77:37]

Well, it constantly throws you back on yourself, you know, it constantly, it throws you into yourself, into yourself, wondering, well, what is your intention, what do you do with things, how do you feel about things, you know, and you search around in there, you know, and you can't really find something you can actually settle on completely, but you do come to a place where you have a conviction of maybe to do this or not do that, all right, I'm going to do this, and it just comes out of you organically, you know, after you go down into the area of moral consideration. I thought, uh, I always wondered about, you know, how, I was asked, well, what would it teach? And, uh, there's this old thing that says, well, if A, then B, if not A, then not B, and

[78:39]

I thought, well, great, you know, the symbolic logic, I can deal with that. But, um, and then we take these precepts, you know, and what does that have to do with A, not B, and then I begin to see, well, gee, this is kind of what it is, I mean, that what all these precepts are about is that things affect other things, and that, uh, like I said earlier, you can do whatever you want, but be ready to accept the consequences, and if you are ready, then maybe you're not breaking a precept, you know, you've actually accepted the consequences, you know, and you know what they are, and you've settled with that, well, of course, you never know, but, uh, anyway, that's what I thought. Um, so I'd like to say a couple of things to finish up, and, you know, we'll see, uh,

[79:44]

some people have mentioned at times, you know, maybe there's some way to think about this, uh, you know, how we help one another, um, study or use the precepts and so on, and particularly this one seems one where, um, it might be useful for us in some way to think about how we help each other think about it or, um, support one another, um, there's a couple things I'd like to bring up, uh, I did like, uh, I don't know if you saw it, um, well, I'll come to that in a minute, uh, as far as taking the, you know, to take the consequences, it does seem to be, um, kind of a problem, I was a little bit, uh, you know, when somebody says, um, you know, it sort of comes up with the teacher-student thing, and a teacher who's been having affairs with students, and then when the students, other students find out about it and are upset, they're breaking the precept of causing disharmony within the sangha, but, you know, the other, the teacher, uh, wasn't necessarily breaking any precept, but that to me is an example of, here are some consequences of people being upset,

[80:49]

well, what do you have to be upset about? I don't want those consequences, you know, so to me, that's a kind of example of, uh, where not, you know, there is, there are places like that, or even if you're in a relationship, and the person you're in a relationship with, some of you have mentioned monogamous relationships, has an affair, why are you so upset? I still love you, you know, and if you're upset, well, I don't want that consequence, thank you, you know, and you shouldn't be that way, so there, it does come up that, you know, where, where people are not, don't, do not seem to be prepared to take consequences, you know, very clearly, uh, those are just a couple examples. Uh, I liked, um, the statement of, because we value each other, we're willing to suffer, isn't that nice? I'm willing to suffer, and that to me, and that's very similar to our saying something like, uh, there's something, there is something here about restraint, and it does mean, and it does, and it is related at some

[81:53]

point to, because we value something, I'm willing to suffer, you know, and it, and those, I think those are really related in some, at some, some level. Um, and, uh, I also, um, uh, you know, in some ways, we do, uh, I like that thought about also the, uh, you know, if you have all those guidelines, uh, like the monks, in some way, it makes your life very simple, and it's part of the basis of life here at Tassajara, and gives you the chance, because you don't have to think about what to do next, you can be looking at what's going on in your mind, or in your being, in a way that you can't, when you're busy thinking about, now, now, what am I going to do now? What would, what would really make me happy now? You know, what would, what would make me feel better now? Let's see, and, uh, what could I do? And it's sort of what happens to us on days off sometimes, you

[82:55]

know, I had this sort of suffering when I was living, you know, years ago at Tassajara, I haven't seemed to have it less now, I sort of get through the day off, okay, but it's sort of like having to figure out, what am I going to do now? You know, so that I can have a good time, so that I'll feel good, you know, and when, so when we, when we just follow the schedule, or, you know, and for, for some people who have many, many kinds of precepts, or, you know, that sort of thing, then it becomes, in some ways, it's very easy, it's such relief, and there's some people who are very suited for that kind of relief, and are able to make use of that structure, so that they actually can have much more of their energy, and going into what, how do things actually happen? You know, what, what is the nature of experience? Where is calm, and so forth? So, um, let me just, um, read a couple

[83:56]

things. I, I really, um, I like this thing, and, um, Norman Fisher wrote this in the, for the Buddhist, it was printed here in the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, so I'll read some excerpts of it. Some of these things, by the way, in a week, I'm going to go up to the city, uh, for a few days, so I'll Xerox, um, a number of these things, so that, you know, you know, we'll put them out. Uh, this is more specifically about teachers and students, uh, rather than, uh, he does mention the, um, you know, there's that story about bird nest Roshi, and the person who used to live in a tree, and he was known as bird nest Roshi, and there's that, somebody went out and said, you know, what's the meaning of life? And he said, do good, don't do evil. Sounds pretty moralistic, right? But anyway, the person said, everybody knows that, even a child of four knows that, and bird nest Roshi says, yes, every child of five knows it, but a lot of sages of 80 don't, you know, can't practice it completely, or can't understand it. There was some kind of answer. Um, but, uh, I appreciated Norman's

[85:00]

kind of style, and, uh, there is a kind of, there's something very kind of honest and basic, and yet, something, you know, rather nice and light about this. So, yeah, I thought I would share it with you. Someone asked me what I think about Zen teachers becoming involved sexually with Zen students. It shouldn't happen. It's foolish to even think about it. It doesn't do anyone any good. It's hard to think of anything good to say about it. I'm very susceptible to the crazy wisdom point of view, and I do not enjoy the narrow-minded, rule-bound sense of morality that seems to be an occupational hazard for some of those religiously inclined, but I've never yet encountered any Buddhist teacher proposing such a free and easy view of morality, who I didn't think was kidding himself about it, and using the apparent permission of the non-dual teaching to engage in self-deception on one level or another. I used to see teachers who slept with their students as manipulative. Now I see that teachers can themselves just as easily be manipulated by their students. Mostly it's unconscious, I think, a failure on everyone's

[86:02]

part to appreciate how deep the power relationships are that underlie sexuality. The sexual issue is actually just a particularly lurid and mythic eruption of the contradictions and difficulties that underlie the relationship from the beginning of teacher and student. Anytime you give up the sense that it is you who are standing on your own feet, and only you who can take a step forward, that you and only you at all times are the boss, whenever you forget about that and begin to surrender, you've already been screwed. But, wouldn't it be nice? This is what we all want to do. I don't know what to do in my life, would you tell me? Can you tell me what to do so that everything will be okay? This is the way sometimes we are as students, we would like it if there was somebody we could go

[87:05]

to like that. We all want to do that. It's comforting not to have to be responsible for the whole universe and to be able to be taken care of by someone who is. And it's very wonderful to have a lot of people depending on you and thinking that you're very smart and good looking. Those are the real elements of seduction. How often do we fall for them during the progress of our path? Teachers need to be very, very humble, I think. Students are smart, teachers are dumb. If anything good happens in a dharma relationship, it's because of the student. It has very little to do with the teacher. Everybody should know this. Teachers are supposed to show up at the right time, and if they don't show up at the right time, and take care of their knitting. That's it. I think we need to think about the teacher-student relationship a lot more and we will in the doing

[88:12]

of it. I'd suggest we start by taking the capital T off of teacher and making sure that students talk to each other a lot and to their teachers. And when Buddhist teachers are a dime a dozen and no one knows which ones are good and which ones are bad, except by the results over a long period of time, we'll probably be a lot better off. ... [...]

[89:02]

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