Yes. You were saying in the lecture that people have asked a lot of questions about political issues and if you're not a politician, well, people will probably continue to ask these questions. Probably, yeah. But I still don't get a sense of how do you really feel about the suffering of the world coming into the event center and being part of the discussion here. There are a lot of religious institutions and leaders that have made a point of staying away from any kind of political turmoil and dealing with issues right above that, while others have taken a very key leadership role in political life in any country. So there's a whole spectrum and people will come here and they'll do what they need to do regardless of what you tell us anyway, but I'm just really interested in how do

[01:13]

you see, seriously, you know, that meeting point between the suffering of the world and the people we all carry with us and coming here, perhaps, if I could think of this place as sort of a sanctuary where we should not be distracted by those things as much as possible and come here and get rejuvenated and then take that energy with us to the world where we could deal with those things. I don't know. Well, you know, you people might get me to do something yet. I'd like to see, you know, since I do, you know, have more, you know, response to the world, suffering of the world, I, you know, feel very good. I don't, you know, somehow, I mean, I don't want it to be like I read an article a while

[02:19]

back about the farm and, you know, in Summertown, Tennessee, Steve Gaskin's group and that's a, they were very exemplary, you know, very idealistic and they went down to Guatemala after the earthquake and helped rebuild buildings and so, and they lived very simply and I think fairly strict vegetarian, you know, so they didn't even like eat honey because it's exploiting bees and they sent, you know, they sent food to places, I mean, and they, and then they had this whole thing of, you know, like if you don't want to have your baby, come and have it here and we'll take care of it for you. And pretty soon they had thousands of people a day, you know, coming to the farm. And the people who did that, you know, for a while, you know, one can devote oneself to And so it was like every family had to have some kind of, you know, less, I mean, everybody

[03:21]

who's sort of trying to have their family and raise their children, then they have to have some other person who's not so together, you know, that they're living with, you know. So after a while they found like, well, they couldn't do that. You know, after six or eight years of trying to do that, the people who left said, and it was the same here at Cincinnati for a while. At one point, you know, it was kind of like, well, my gosh, we'd like to be able to take care of our own children and our own family. And at some point, you know, to have, to be, to take on, you know, a certain level of it gets to be too much. And one's own stability is threatened. So without, you know, jeopardizing the basic stability, and I think it would help basic stability, to be more responsive and to be a bit more involved in one way or another. And so what I don't understand is what that would be or, you know, what that is.

[04:29]

But I, yeah, I would, I would like to see that. And we do here at Curtin Fellowship and Zen Center, I feel, tend to get a little preoccupied with, you know, my meditation and this, that, and the other thing, which at some point, kind of irrelevant. That's a good service, though, for the outside world to be able to come in and have that space. So in a sense, you are performing a sense of community by performing that service for the people. I wouldn't feel so guilty about not worrying about, you know, the outside nuclear world having to perform a community service. Yeah, I just, I agree. I think it is a service, and I think the world needs places like Green Gulch and practices like meditation, and I think it is a real service to be able to offer those things. And so I feel pretty good about that.

[05:37]

At the same time, I'd like to be able to do more. I'd like to see Zen Center doing something else. I just wanted to share with you that my sense of ambivalence about it, too, because if the Zen Center was just like everywhere else, then what's the point of coming here? I do appreciate the sort of sentiments and calmness and being so close to the real world and yet so separate also. So that is one of the most appealing things about it. This may also be appropriate not to mention that on the 26th, we're going to have a discussion here on nuclear arms race and our personal responsibility. The 26th? Yeah. Yes. I think providing a place where, a practice where we become aware, far from sanctuary,

[06:49]

we become much more aware of our suffering and our connection to human suffering. But providing that place with that very specific personal and yet generic awareness allows us to leave this place, each of us, to determine the ways in which we will act to alleviate suffering. I think that if there were a particular program at Zen Center that would actually undermine its function, because I think its function is to make us aware of which direction, when we leave here, we wish to go. Which cause, which party, which issue, which whatever. And I think that that is a service I would not like to undermine. And it also makes us very aware that to maintain the position of a discreet, individual, separate,

[08:00]

uncaring, unconcerned self increases our own value. And so, just by coming into this atmosphere, we become more compelled, I think, to do something, to be more directed, to be more specific about what that something is that we choose to do is about. Gee, it sounds like what I was talking about. A little bit. Just a minute. Alice, over here. Yes. Well, the things that people have been saying brought up something again for me that I hadn't been thinking in a while. You started out by saying, you know, when we gave the talk about I ought to be thinking this and I ought to be doing this and how that, the distraction, really pulls you away from yourself. And the other hand, well, what came into my mind within the last five minutes was that type of being of a certain, like, a way of being conditioned, the way I was conditioned,

[09:01]

that you're supposed to have a certain degree of discomfort, you know, and struggle related to their suffering in the world and what are you going to do about it. And it just brought that up again of, like, it's complicated because for me finding a peace of mind at times enables, seems to enable at least more connection with people, I mean more real open heartedness, not because I think it's a good idea but it's just there. And at the other, you know, on another side is going for more comfort somehow, more inner comfort. I mean, things come up that aren't comfortable but it's something about that, like, are you going for more comfort? I mean, because it's in, like, I guess I am going for peace of mind, I'm going for what's happening, I guess. But there is something of that of, you know, away from all that struggle and there's another voice that says, yeah, but then you're not doing anything about suffering.

[10:02]

Anyway, just all that just came up again and it's something I'll have to sit with after I leave here but, yeah, struggle. Well, there's, I guess I feel sometimes like, well, I feel now like maybe I'm repeating myself but what you brought up is, you know, it just seems like a lot of the, you know, there's a certain amount of do-goodism which is as much, you know, telling myself what to do and then it doesn't allow, like you're saying, sometimes you just feel like, you know, and when somebody, you know, sometimes people have talked here and been very upset or had particular, you know, problems in their life and everybody here, suddenly, you know, the

[11:05]

whole tone of the room changes and we're all right there, you know, with that person. And so we do connect like that. And, you know, nowadays, I mean, I've read, you know, sometimes like Alice Miller, you know, writes about this kind of thing about how, you know, growing up and children and parent-child relationship and so forth. And, you know, we get told so much, you know, don't be selfish, you know, be generous. And then pretty soon we do it because we're supposed to. You know, and even though it's this nice thing to do, it's not actually coming from my heart. And somehow, you know, to learn to come from my heart even though, well, I don't, it's not happening right now. But the more we touch our own heart or touch our own body and mind and feelings and thoughts,

[12:12]

with compassion and warmth. Or, you know, when I came to talk to, I saw Stephen Levine when he was here. He mentioned the retreat a week or so ago. And he said, you know, I never mention awareness anymore without mentioning mercy. To be aware, to be aware of whatever it is with some feeling of mercy or forgiveness, warmth. And it's very hard sometimes, you know, how we can, how could we possibly do that? Whether it's myself or somebody else. And yet, it's something that can happen, you know, so quickly and easily sometimes. And we let go or release in some way and the feeling is there. And we have some feeling and we have some response to the situation.

[13:16]

And, you know, it often takes some particular difficulty in our life. It seems like, you know, becoming sick. Oneself or one's family, someone in one's family or a close friend. To bring up this kind of feeling. And it's interesting too, I've said many times, but, you know, we've met, most of us, we've all had some feeling in our life of how empty things are, you know. The bottom comes out of our reality, you know. You have a marriage that breaks up or so many things can happen and the bottom disappears, you know. And sometimes, you know, it's at those times we often find our depth of our being. And tremendous resource and reserve in our life comes forward and responds to the situation.

[14:26]

You know, it's sort of like when you trip and then... I've sat down sometimes and been so miserable and then pretty soon the ground gets awfully interesting. And there's little ants crawling. And then somehow, you know, you come back. I didn't talk about today, but, you know, it's so important to think about, you know, what is important. Finally, you know, what's important. And this is again another way of talking about what I was, you know, saying today. Is to bring up this question for yourself. What's really important finally? So now several people have said, you know, what's important for them. Yes.

[15:30]

Yes. I've struggled with this. Like we were talking about. I dropped on my own due to culture and relaxation. I was... I got out of suffering. And... Well, I don't want to begrudge anybody that. Well, I'm just going to go on. They... That I have... I seem to get lost in it sometimes. And I think I've deluded myself. I think it's just the ants. I'm not going to hold on to it. But as you're talking, I realize, you know. And then I worry, well, I should... The world. There's not that much available. So it's only... The time that I have to anything that's communicable. It only comes out of that place when I'm really at peace with myself. And anything else is bigger than me.

[16:31]

It just makes it down. Trouble down there. And if that's just the cycle, then I have to keep returning to that place where it's people. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's... Good comes out. That's a little bit like what some other people said about, you know, the value of Green Gulch. Because whether you can... You know, if you can come to Green Gulch and return to that kind of place, then you can go out again. And sometimes you don't even have to come to Green Gulch. You know, you return to yourself. You can go out again. I just... There's tremendous difference between, you know, doing what you should and doing what you want. And... I just... I know all the years that I was doing what I should. I could never do enough and... It was pretty miserable. Overbearing.

[17:33]

Yes. I just want to share with everybody that I went to the Mill Valley Film Festival just this last week. And it was a beautiful documentary on Mother Teresa in the show. And it will be shown in San Francisco at the Roxy Theater starting on November 21st. Five days. It's a beautiful film because I think it shows a person who really wants... It's very important for her to provide service and compassion. And it's a very inspirational film. And I hope that many people can see it. It took two... The two filmmakers were there. The two sisters who spent five years working on it. They traveled to many countries to film Mother Teresa. She's established houses now in 70 countries. Two in San Francisco. Very inspirational. Yes.

[18:37]

I keep hearing you say it again and every time it sounds like the first time. So I must really need to hear this. There's a difference between what I want to do and what I should do. And it feels like what happens to me is that... The want comes up. And then the should co-opts it somehow. And there's a continual... I want the feeling that I have when I come to Green Gulch. And then about an infinitesimal second later it's... I should come to Green Gulch every Sunday. So something about how... And that's... I mean choosing a practice or choosing a path involves... How do I keep myself coming from that want place without turning it into a should? Even if I know that when it's a want it is something I'm choosing for myself. Right now just that flip over happens so quickly with things that I genuinely desire.

[19:48]

And know to be things that would be good for myself or good for other people. Just for example people are talking about compassion. Yes, don't turn it into a should. But how do I aim myself? It's like pin the tail on the donkey. I want that goal but where... How do I bring that into here? Pre-empting it with that regulatory brain. It seems to me just your awareness of that. That it's going on. Yes. Make some clarity for yourself. Yes, we have two words. There seems to be conflict in all of us at times between... Putting it into words but it's very difficult to feel it. Conflict between love and commitment. If there is any conflict between love and commitment I think rather than trying to look for the answer

[20:55]

I think one should settle the conflict. When we live in a real estate we know where the living comes from. Because otherwise we'd be stuck in there. The house has to settle itself. You know, seeking the loving. When actually maybe having this suffering you don't want to have it. And sharing it with the world. You know what I'm saying? I'm not sure. Well, if I do not resolve the problem of conflict between myself and I just react to the world's suffering by adding my own conflict I don't need to feel more at peace with myself. All I do is add it to the conflict in the world. And at that point maybe I could be better off to be selfish and quiet. Feel that conflict is resolved and realize that I cannot resolve it. Because I'm on the conflict. If I don't know what conflict is and give it total attention

[21:59]

even a half a percent then I'm in the worst karma that ever existed. That's the way they're all into. I don't mean to make it dramatic. But if they are going to be dramatic definitely they'll stop and look where the drama is coming from. It's definitely a good thing to worry about conflict. Sorry, I raised those two words because the other one was worse. With me it's a good emotion because I don't know what we can do to resolve it. The conflict between... Conflict. If you don't have a conflict within yourself then you shouldn't touch anything. That's my feeling. Conflict. Right now, for instance, I'm feeling myself very intensely. I don't have any emotion.

[22:59]

And I'm pushing away everything else. Can I resolve it? Well, I can't resolve it. It's definitely a problem. I am conflict. So I am conflict. So I still am. Thank you. I think you're making the same point you brought up this morning about the man who was asking about the war in Vietnam and the negotiations by Crimea and the wars inside. It seems as though in the grand scheme of things if we can love ourselves then all this stuff on the outside is just going to dissipate, disappear. Commitment has no meaning unless there is no conflict. And if there is conflict there is no point trying to make it not be conflict. It's another conflict. So I set on my conflict. And I am that conflict and I be that conflict and I start judging. It's my war. At that point it's a test. It's a test to allow this thing

[24:02]

to heal itself and me being a dumbbell not knowing what to do. That's okay. I can't take care of anybody. The process has resulted. Well this is a this is not something you figure out once and for all. If you look for the magical word or phrase remember it's like the sword overboard and you're not sure about it. So this isn't something you figure out once and for all. It's something that as this comes up you look again on each occasion what is it finally you want aside from shits. And you notice the shits. And often times you can one of the things I've done over the years is just I made a real point of noticing the shits

[25:04]

in my own internal dialogue and then checking it out. Should in order to what? Or am I really saying you know we are so Americans are so authority prone. And I went through this with my publisher. I've been working the last year on a cookbook for greens with Debra Madison who is the chef there. I'm the lesser of two co-authors. And you know we sent this manuscript into New York Bantam Books. Bantam wrote back and said we said things like cook the vegetables and each other as tender as you like them. And the editor wrote back and said how do we know? How long?

[26:06]

How long is that? Oh my God. I mean I'm telling you New York and this is it's a big difference between the East Coast and the West Coast. The East Coast it's you know you have an authority that tells you you who do not understand and do not know and cannot figure out for yourself the authority will tell you how it is to be done how it should be done and then you will follow the directions. Explicitly in California it's much more like hey cook until they are tender as you like them. So we had So we had it out

[27:08]

with her finally and I said lady look we are not trying to teach robots how to cook. Robots who cannot see or taste or smell anything for themselves but they have the watch in one hand and the cookbook in the other. We are talking about real people cooking. People who can smell things and taste things and touch things and figure out for themselves what they like. So I went and I told her tender how do we know what is tender Your lips your teeth can bite through it with a slight resistance but not an inordinate amount. At some point it's like

[28:09]

you already know nobody has to tell you. So you can come back to that. When you notice the should you check them out. You can work these things out. They may come over to your side the shoulds may come over to your side. They do. The other thing you can do with the shoulds is you ask the should another way of saying what is really important here on each occasion you check it out again. Another way is to say check out the motivation. Why are you telling me what to do what I should do because you want me to be happy because what because then I'd be a good person

[29:09]

you mean I'm not a really good person and this reminds me of a story from that book How Can I Help and there was this there was this man who had had oh he had some kind of hip injury or legs or something and then he was in physical rehabilitation physical therapy and he said the people in there they were really nice to me and they were really helpful and they were really encouraging and supportive in helping me to walk and all that but one thing I'll tell you is not one of those people ever saw me as whole and okay just the way I was not being able to oh when you're able to walk again oh it's going to be so wonderful oh and he said so nobody in that whole place even though they were the nicest people and everything appreciated me just the way I was

[30:09]

and saw me as whole already with my imperfection as whole and I realized that that was up to me and nobody else was going to do that for me and that was my work so anyways you can check out the shoulds too as far as the motivation behind them and then when you clarify the motivation then you can see whether the should actually applies or not and a lot of the times you can translate you say you translate the I would like to into the should but you can also translate the shoulds back to I'd like to yes I keep thinking that one of the problems that keeps coming up with me about the shoulds and those voices is one of survival that's really the main problem that if you don't listen to these voices you're not going to survive you're not going to be loved you're going to the poor house you're going to die and it's such a strong feeling

[31:13]

of survival that it's you say yeah but I know that however I better do this and this and it's something that really isn't what you want to do but you do it for survival yeah well the interesting thing is that that person doesn't have to survive but you'll be okay anyway laughter it's all very well yeah those people do come to an end and the person we know ourself to be does you know disappear now and again and then we discover that we're somebody else in a new life and so yeah but it's interesting to notice that and then you can check it out laughter I kept thinking how you have to die and be born and die and be born all the time and if we're afraid if we keep holding on to that survival

[32:13]

well we can't do that we have to be able to die and see what is what is the next thing we want what is the next thing we try all the time and my problem is how do I hold on to survival I'm afraid, I go and I'm yeah just a minute I just wanted to further the water of service versus shoulds and wants by noting that one time I used to bake bread for a group that was rehearsing for a play and I thought oh I could just bring some bread that we could actually have in baskets instead of everybody pretending to be eating the bread out of the baskets so all these people who were working out of these high lines really started getting into the fact that rehearsals were fun because they knew they were going to get some nice fresh baked bread to eat during this particular scene and one of the things that you just said earlier was that you didn't feel like you had done very much service in your life but the person

[33:14]

who taught me to bake bread was someone out of a book by the name of Dr. Abraham laughter laughter and maybe I'm the person who knows how to cook and knows how to do things but I really didn't know how to make bread and I never would have done it if someone hadn't told me now you take this much flour and you put this much in the bowl and you do this and you let it sit for this long so that was all very helpful to me and then once I knew how to make bread then I could do different things laughter I'm struck by the footstool laughter it tells you how to taste it tells you it's going to taste for you it's going to die for you it's going to make love or not make love for you there's this endless amount of things that it's really a disgusting helpful way laughter taking over and when I listen to you I think to myself I think

[34:14]

how do I solve for me how to solve this problem and the analogy for me comes up I to listen to the voice is your voice from a street voice and one of them has an eastern accent laughter my real voice has an eastern accent I listen to a California voice and talk to this garden I really seriously think you get your ears developed and you start hearing a slightly different tonality even if it uses the very words you will use like the very things you will use it's still coming from a slightly different known field a slightly different accent and for me that's it's just developing that ear which tells me it's not the content because the content can be just the things you believe that's what I believe but there's just that little

[35:15]

different accent and I know it's not genuine all these things are useful though you mentioned survival and we can't do without that we can't do without a voice that is concerned about our survival maybe it's originally parental we incorporate it and we need that but the point is if it's always there then you have no space to move so sometimes you let go of it and you do something I had this wonderful day one time I worked with this woman and I had this I said you know I can't say what I want to say in meetings she said well give me an example so I told her about this meeting she said ok now we're going to do a little exercise you're going to say what you wanted to say first of all can you remember how you felt when you couldn't say anything that's your sensor now

[36:16]

we're going to have the sensor could you ask the sensor to step into the other room for a minute the sensor's big concern is that you want to get rid of it and you're going to do it and you know and you're going to get rid of it forever so the sensor is just as nervous as you are and the sensor covers this nervousness and anxiety with all it's it's put you know and doesn't want to be recognized for what it is so I said well I asked it to step into the other room it won't go she says ok well would you be reassuring tell the sensor you'll check back with it later you're just going to say a few things you'll check back later to see what the sensor thought of it but in the meantime just step out of the picture ok I still can't get rid of it

[37:18]

there's a television in that other room ask it to go watch television show on so finally I said ok I got the sensor in the other room and then she said alright now what would you say and I felt the sensor back again and said the sensor's back again push it away kick it lock the door so I finally you know did that and I got to say what I had to say and she said alright now let's have the sensor come back and the sensor comes back and says well what did you think well that sounded pretty good to me but you know if it's so solidly in place so we need that it's the same thing with thought sometimes there's a teaching don't think or Dogen says the key of

[38:19]

Zazen is not to think non-thinking what is that and the six patriarchs said no thought, no form, non-abiding and then he said but if you think this means not to think no this isn't right because if you don't think at all this is making your mind like a rock and it's a cause of insentiency you know and it's obstructing the way so when I say not to think I mean when you think think nothing of it so you know we can use thought and we can use a sensor the point is to be able to let go of it you know now and again and check out what's going on and let something happen and let something come out and then we can check it back and then what I mentioned earlier there is such a thing as imagination creativity, dreaming up what to do stumbling upon what to do you know responding and to be able to do any of that

[39:20]

you drop the sensor and then somebody has to say did that work out pretty well or not you know at some point yeah you have to look at it but if you're looking at it constantly that's when we get hamstrung and we feel like oh I can't make a move alright well this is enough for today it's lunch time thank you very much

[39:41]

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