Since I've been back, I still feel a bit out of place here, or at least not as familiar, or close to everything and everyone. And I also feel impoverished, if that's possible. I have lots of things to talk about, but I don't feel like they're of any value particularly. So I feel kind of poor. But anyway, practicing Zen I don't think is...

[02:16]

It just has to do with sharing your wealth, but also with sharing your poverty. And it doesn't just have to do with accumulating some riches. It may have more to do with sharing your poverty. Anyway, putting that aside, I will talk. I read a story recently. Actually, I didn't exactly read the story, but I read an article by Robert Bly about what men really want.

[03:21]

And he says what men really want is... You're already laughing. You're already smiling. Some of you probably read this article. There's a Xerox floating around, which I got hold of. Anyway, he says what men really want is the deep masculine. And no woman is ever going to give that to him. It's not possible. And he tells about a Grimm's Fairytale, which I thought, in case you haven't seen it already, It's kind of a curious tale. In this story, there's a section of the woods where people are disappearing. And nobody knows what happens to them, and they send out parties.

[04:28]

Every so often, people go to try to find out what's happening in that neck of the woods and what to do about it. And none of them ever come back. So eventually, people stop going to that part of the woods. They just stay away from there. As usual in these kind of stories, you can start to think already, Is there some part of me that's like that part of the woods? Do you have any woods in you that you don't frequent because you get lost there? You disappear there? It's hard to come back once you get into that neck of the woods. Well, one day, some fairly young man shows up with his dog, and I forget what happens,

[05:31]

but maybe they're particularly hospitable to him. And at some point, he says, Well, you've been very kind to me, and is there anything I can do for you? And they say, well, as a matter of fact, there is. There's this part of the woods that's like that. There's this part of the woods where people have been disappearing, and maybe you can go and check it out for us and see what's happening there. And if you want, we'll send along some people with you. He says, I'll just go by myself, thank you. So he heads out there with his dog, and after several days, they are walking by a lake, and a huge arm reaches out of the lake and grabs the dog and pulls it into the lake. He's rather fond of his dog. But also, he's not a particularly hasty kind of person, I guess.

[06:33]

He doesn't simply dive into the lake after the dog, but he heads back to town, and he gets a whole crew of people at that point with buckets to come back to the lake, and they, bucket by bucket, they drain the lake. See what's going on in that lake. This sort of reminds me of, there's that story, someone asked Vaso, I forget, what is the true meaning of Buddhism, or Bodhidharma coming from the West, or something like that. He said, when you swallow all the water in the China Sea, I'll tell you. Anyway, they empty the lake, and down at the bottom of the lake is this huge hairy man, who's covered, all over his body is covered with hair. And he's quite large.

[07:35]

So it takes a bunch of them, but they capture him, and they put him in a cage, and cart him back to town. And they put this cage with the wild man in the king's courtyard, and so people get to go by this often, and say, look at that hairy man, isn't he wild. But he's rather contained in this cage. So I think most of us, most of you, us, are familiar with this wild man who's in a cage. We keep a pretty good hold of ourselves, and we don't get too angry generally, and we don't get violent, we don't grab bird dogs and suck them into the lake,

[08:39]

and any number of other weird things that this beastly creature might do. And so this state of affairs goes on for some time. And then one day, the king's son, who's eight years old, his golden ball rolls into the cage. And he's very fond of his golden ball, and he wants it back. So he has to ask the wild man if he could please have his golden ball back. First of all, he's rather intimidated about the possibility

[09:47]

that he's been talking to the wild man, but eventually he gets up his courage, and he says, can he have his golden ball back. He hasn't been in the habit of conversing regularly with this wild man. So I don't know, maybe he says good morning first, which he's never done before. Good morning. Excuse me, but could I please have my golden ball back. And the wild man says, well, I can give you your golden ball back if you'll let me out of the cage. And at this, this is the thought of this for the boy, it's very disturbing. So he goes out. And a few days later, he comes back and tries again.

[10:50]

And again, the same answer. So we've been talking at various times about this kind of experience, how it is to get yourself to do something, sometimes like to get up in the morning, and you may say, well, come on, let's get up now. I promised myself to have a nap later after lunch, or I'll get up now, but then later. So you make a little deal. You say to the lazy part, well, let's sit down now, and then I'll give you a break later. Or whatever, we make these kind of deals.

[12:12]

So anyway, the wild man, of course, wants to make a deal, and the boy is hesitant to make a deal. Finally, the third time, he says to the wild man, could he please have his golden ball back? And the wild man says, of course, I will give you your ball back if you let me out of the cage. And the boy says, but I don't have the key. I can't do that because I don't have the key. And the wild man says, it's under your mother's pillow. The wild man knows all along, these wild men are not that, you know, they're smart. They're very intuitive, and they know more than you about what's going on. If you want to find out anything, you just have to get up your courage, finally, and ask for the golden ball, and the wild man will, you know, there's a little bit of, you know, this quality of,

[13:17]

the wild man wants to get loose, and also then the wild man will help you get him loose, if you want to do that, and know how to go by it. So this is quite a bit of, you know, for this young man, is, you know, this presents him with a new problem. Does he go to his mother and ask for the key now, or what? Well, he doesn't go to his mother and ask for the key, because she's not going to want to let the wild man out of the cage, after all. She's going to tell the young man that he's got other balls he can play with besides the nice golden one, and so on, and why doesn't he stop trying to get that ball back. There's other things in life that are just as nice to do, and a lot safer, and, you know,

[14:19]

than having these wild men run around. So the boy doesn't, you know, pretty much figure all that out. He waits for his mom and dad to go away on a little trip, and then he goes into their bedroom, and sure enough, under his mother's pillow is the key. He gets the key, and goes and opens the cage, and the wild man comes out and gives him the ball, and starts to run away, and he says, well, don't run away, my parents are going to be very displeased if you disappear now, and I'd like to play with you. The wild man says, well, if you'd like to play with me, why don't you come along with me? And the boy says, OK, I'll come along with you,

[15:30]

and the wild man says, but you know, if you come along with me, you'll never see your mom and dad again. Anyway, that's as far as the story got in the article. I wrote a reply, and this probably goes on a little bit in the parents' fairy tales, I'm not sure. We may need to see if we have a copy in the library. And that reply points out how it is that we have various relationships with this wild man. I think there must equally be a wild woman and the same wild man on the run. All covered with air. Riding on a broomstick. So what about this wild man or wild woman?

[16:39]

And if we want the golden ball, it looks like we have to let them out of the cage. Anyway, we can have various relationships. One relationship, as we've mentioned, is just to stay away from that part of the woods, and don't go near there, and go about your life as best you can. And, you know, occasionally you might happen to wander there, and you disappear for a while, and you come back. Anyway, you basically, one can basically try to stay away from that neck of the woods, and live a conventional life. And that's all well and good. And then, you know, there are instances in your life when you get sick, and you get divorced, and your child is killed in an accident, various things happen.

[17:45]

And then, of course, when you will meet, you will end up in that part of the woods, regardless of your best intentions to the contrary. And another possibility is to, you know, with some bucket work, of one sort or another, cross-legged sitting, or therapy, or, I don't know, yoga, who knows, writing, you know, people in various ways, look into themselves, and they discover that there's some element in their life that is beastly. In my life, not just those people's lives out there.

[18:48]

I mean, it's easy to see the people out there, there's a beastly person there. And it's a little harder, you know, at some point, when one begins to notice that there's a beastly person here, as well as a beastly person, you know, all those beastly people out there. I don't know if I want to hang out with all those beastly Zen people, because, you know, I'm a little more developed than that, and I'm not that beastly. I remember when I was first here, I didn't think I was, you know, I thought I was a pretty nice person. I didn't think I was at all beastly. And it was curious, seven months after I was here, one of the first beastly things that happened was that Suzuki Sensei came down here, and she gave me a big box of salted nuts. And I thought, well, that is so nice of her.

[19:53]

And, you know, I'm a nice person, and, you know, that's really nice that she would think that I'm a nice person and give me a nice big box of salted nuts. And, you know, I ate a few nuts one day. Oh, you know, I didn't do anything with them, you know, for a week or two. I was very polite, you know. Anyway, at some point, I ate a few nuts, and, I don't know, a day or so later, I ate the whole rest of the box. And I found myself thinking, you know, how beastly. I hadn't realized I was, you know, capable of that kind of function, activity. You know, and one thing led to another, and I discovered I was, as I mentioned in my last lecture, very angry. And it just kept getting worse and worse,

[20:55]

the beastliness of it all. And I couldn't... It's sort of funny now, you know, I couldn't sit still in Zazen for about six or seven years. And it's hard to imagine now. Somebody, you know, when I couldn't sit still in Zazen, somebody said, you know, years from now, you're going to look back, and you'll want to understand how it was that you could not sit still. But it was just the opposite then. I couldn't understand how anybody, why everybody wasn't moving in Zazen, and shaking, and breathing, and running and running, and bouncing about on their sofas. I don't know how you do it all. You know, I wonder where the beast is. You know, I mean, for me, I couldn't keep that beast in the cage. Once that beast got out, boy, that beast was really on the loose. And I tried my darndest to control the beast.

[22:00]

And basically, I tried for a long time not to have anything to do with the beast. You know, this isn't at all what I wanted to talk about today. But anyway, I can talk about that at a later time. Should I go on with this, or do you want me to talk about something else? Are you interested in beasties? I'm interested in that too. Well, anyway, I can testify to the fact that once you encounter this beast, this beastly person that I am, it doesn't work very well to try to ignore or restrain,

[23:17]

contain the beast. And I found that, you know, I spent some period of time, maybe two years, trying not to have anything to do with the beast. You know, regardless of what people tell you, it's pretty difficult to change your habit. And one can be pretty convinced that the thing to do, of course, is to not have anything to do with that beast. I mean, it's just not nice. Nice people don't do things like that. And aside from nice people, you know, we're all practicing Buddhism together. And so, of course, we should practice restraint and kindness and friendliness and compassion and sympathetic joy and loving kindness and generosity and a big mind and so on.

[24:25]

And, you know, we shouldn't get involved in this beastly stuff. Should we? No, we shouldn't. Be a good boy. So... To say I did that, I spent a good two years doing my best. Now, one day, you know, somehow it occurred to me that, you know, maybe I could... But this wasn't working. This wasn't working as a way to go about things. You know, it's sort of like disciplining yourself or something. Like I mentioned about my knees. You know, if you hurt me, I'll hurt you back. And then you hurt your knees, and then they hurt you back some more, and then you hurt them back. And... Well...

[25:28]

So it occurred to me, finally, that this wasn't working. And the beast wasn't going away. The beastly person wasn't going away. So one day I decided to find out what was going on. Now, it happened that that day... That day I decided to find out what was going on. I was sitting, and instead of trying to stop the shaking, I was trying to find out what was going on with the movement I was doing. So instead of trying to hold myself still, I was kind of allowing myself to move. And then, instead of just shaking,

[26:39]

I started moving rather rhythmically, in a more flowing form. And Suzuki Roshi came by and asked me to do kinning. It was right in the middle of zazen. And of course, being a good STEM student, and still being very much under the sway of doing what's right, and what you're supposed to do, I was rather angry. Because nobody else was doing kinning, and I should be sitting in zazen like everybody else. So I was kind of mad, but I got up and started doing kinning. And then after a while, I sat down again. So then later on, I went to see Suzuki Roshi, and I said that I wanted to tell him something, and I told him. I said, I didn't know if he knew that that's what I was doing, but that I had decided to try to find out what was going on,

[27:42]

instead of just stopping it, and trying not to have anything to do with it. And he said, No, I didn't know that. I'm so glad you told me. Thank you very much for telling me. That's really wonderful. I'm so glad you're doing that. And because I had been worried that I wasn't supposed to do that, that maybe I wasn't supposed to find out what was going on, and that's why he asked me to get up and do kinning. So I thought I'd better go ask him, and I did. And he said, No, that's just fine. That's really wonderful that you decided that. So there are these various relationships that one can have

[28:54]

to completely stay away from that area of the woods, to be around that area, but basically still to be kind of familiar with it, but still not to want to not have anything to do with it, but somehow to be burdened with having a bunch to do with it, because you're sitting in Zazen or something, and getting up early in the morning, and you don't have the same kind of capacity when you're sitting in Zazen and getting up early in the morning to avoid the beastliness in your life. And then there's a stage of... There's also the keeping the beast in the cage, and then you know every so often you can let the beast out, and you can get angry, and you unleash this wildness inflicted upon other people for a little while.

[29:57]

And then you pop the beast back in the cage and say, Oh, well, I was just overcome. Sorry about that. Anyway, every so often when your guard is down, and you're particularly tired or you've had a hard day, some beastliness comes out of one sort or another. And then people can get involved also, not just when you're tired or depressed or something, you get angry, or you eat a lot or whatever, but there's also this... You can sort of identify with it, or you can sort of treat it as your pet. Like you have a bulldog or something, and every so often you say, Sick him! And then you... Whatever it is, your charm or your passion, various things pop out. And other people have to deal with that.

[31:03]

But in all of this, in all of these kinds of approaches, there's basically the idea that there's these two identities. Two identities. One identity is someone who is trying to do the right thing and have mom and dad's approval and love and have other people approve and like them. And then I want to do the right thing and I don't want to hurt others and I don't want to get into trouble. I don't want to make a fool of myself. I don't want to behave like an idiot. I don't want to lose my mind. You know, all these things. That's one character. And then there's this beast that doesn't give a shit. It doesn't care about any of that.

[32:42]

And it's just angry. And not just angry, but sometimes very sad, playful, laughing. But even with anger, there's a certain humor, which is the humor of little does he know that one who is trying to behave himself so carefully, when it's in store for him, I will show him. One of these days, he's going to be a little bit tired and we'll jump out there and surprise him, won't we? We're going to get angry. We're going to have a great time then because at last we've been locked up for so long and at last we're going to get out. And it's going to be fun to get the upper hand for a while

[33:49]

after having been subdued so regularly and thoroughly for such a long time. Anyway, there's that kind of humor to the situation from the point of view of the beast. And you see, the beast, as the wild man in that story, the beast who knew exactly where the key was under the mother's pillow, the beast knows quite a bit more about this tame fellow or woman who is trying so hard to be a good person. The beast knows all about that person whereas that person doesn't know so well about the beast. Anyway, we think of these two characters and sometimes we may decide to, instead of to identify with the nice person, we might identify with the beast and then we start being beastly on a regular basis

[34:50]

because it's more true. It's more me. And that's what I said. I had that conversation with Karagiri Roshi about my anger. I said, but I'm angry. So, of course, I should express it. I want to be true to myself. And he said, but you're in a Zen monastery. You have to practice harmonizing with other students. So, one can change one's, you know, identify with the beast. And that's maybe a useful step. But it doesn't, still doesn't integrate these two or get them to be friends.

[35:51]

Or get them to do things together. And there's some tendency for them, you know, not to hang around with the other. And then, interestingly enough, there's a third character. You know, there may be many characters, but this character in particular is a character that notices the other two. It knows the other two quite well. And can talk about the other two. And describe the other two. And it's this one, it's this character that also can teach the other two.

[37:02]

Or encourage the other two to practice Buddhism. Or, you know, at least to, whatever terms you use, to be friends. To get to know each other. To have some real coming together. And some shared understanding. Okay. And it's this third one that, you know, can see the dynamics in the situation. You know, the dynamics of, if you try continuously to ignore the beast,

[38:25]

the beastly aspects or things that are happening, and you try to do that, there's a certain amount of anger and frustration that's built up because you're not paying attention to it. And that, you know, there'll be some anger and frustration there, which will come out as, you know, as anger or frustration. But if you look more closely, you realize that something you haven't paid any attention to, and it's just trying to get your attention. Anyway, that kind of dynamic. And it's this third person who can practice mindfulness. And just see, oh, this happens and this happens and this happens and this happens. Without saying, oh, that's good or that's bad or, you know, what's supposed to happen.

[39:28]

Without siding with anyone. And it's this third person that can practice concentration or encourage concentration and so on. And of course, there is no third person. I mean, if you try to look at that one and you try to say what that person is like, you can't. And if you come up with any kind of description, then this third person is not an object. So once you come up with the object that you identify, that's not it anymore. That's another character in the drama. We're talking about someone who's observing the drama or making up the drama, has some effect on the drama, can alter the drama, can improvise,

[40:33]

or encourage improvisation. Facilitator. My mind is a communications workshop with wisdom constantly arising. If only the facilitator would get it together. Sure. Dogen says that there's a story a monk asked an ancient master when hundreds and thousands, myriads of objects come all at once,

[41:37]

what should one do? The master said, don't try to control them. What should one do? What Dogen said about the story. What should one do? I think he might have said, this is good advice. But he also said, whatever comes, whatever comes is Buddhadharma

[42:39]

and not objects at all. Whatever comes is, whatever it is, what comes, what comes, what comes is Buddhadharma, not objects at all. And don't think about this answer as just a clever admonition. Realize that don't try to control them is the truth. It's the way things are. And that even if you try to control things, you can't. It's impossible. It's impossible.

[43:48]

So I'm just going to talk about that story today. Katagiri Roshi in his lecture at the installation ceremony, we didn't, I think some of you now have heard, he said, there's many big words we get concerned about in practicing Zen, enlightenment, liberation, emancipation, but I think a better word is digestion. And we should be concerned about digesting our life. One by one erasing, taking down the bars.

[45:10]

And when you digest something, Katagiri Roshi reminded me of, Dogen said somewhere that before you, if you feel angry at someone or you want to give them a piece of your mind, wait three nights before you talk to them. Katagiri Roshi said, that's pretty good. He said, you know, in Zazen it works pretty well to digest things because you sit and all this stuff comes up and you just sit there and you naturally have to digest it. You don't have so much other option. But in your everyday life, you may want to get angry in various things. So when I talked to him, he said, so my advice is don't rush in.

[46:23]

Don't do those things. Don't rush right into them. Wait a little bit in digesting some. And then if you want to express it, you know, you will have worked through it some already. And because you've digested it, you know, other people can make use of it too. But of course, if we're trying to do this, sometimes, it's easy enough to say, I'll be perfect. Before you do anything or say anything, it should be completely digested, absorbed. You know, it won't have any raw quality anymore.

[47:26]

It won't offend anybody. It'll just be wonderful. And everybody will say, how nice. So practically speaking though, how are you ever going to do that if you don't sometimes... I mean, we have to practice expressing ourself. And having people tell us if they like it or don't like it, or what happens for them. But it's not that information about what people like or don't like, or if they approve or not, is not for the sake of that one character who so much wants some approval, and to be someone that everyone likes,

[48:30]

but to help you think about how you go about things, and how to integrate those characters in some real way. And whether or not your expression at that time was complete enough, was a complete enough digestion, was a complete enough integration. So you have to translate what people's approval or not has to say about your process, and how to work on yourself, integrating yourself, digesting yourself. . And the center is in sitting,

[49:41]

is someplace where we can meet this wild person. It's fairly safe. It's quite safe compared to our daily life. Because you don't have to worry so much about you know, if you're in the kitchen, there's all those knives handy. And if you fall in love, you might be hurt. If you give yourself to someone else, they may take advantage of you.

[50:43]

Or if you are afraid, people may take advantage of you. Or people may ignore you. So the center is pretty safe. A safe place to meet yourself, meet this wild person who doesn't know about, who knows about the conventions, but who doesn't care. And it won't be right, you see, to identify with one or the other, to identify with the wild person or the conventional one.

[51:53]

They have to, they in a sense digest each other. If you identify just with the wild person, people will ostracize you. You'll go to jail. People may even kill you. And so that doesn't work. And if you identify just with the conventional person, you may even be killed. Your life is always based on some quicksand or foundation that is not stable. Your life is like a bubble that can pop any minute. It's not really possible to sustain that. And if you can sustain it, it's a kind of boring life. It's a kind of boring, unhappy, sad life.

[53:06]

It doesn't have any depth to it. And in certain areas, you can get a certain amount of approval. You can become quite successful. You might even be a successful Zen student and have various positions and become a priest and so on. But that won't be the point. There won't be any real depth to it. And so they need to, those two need to digest each other. And teach and study with each other. I think sometimes about the eating bowls.

[54:15]

It's not just eating bowls, but what about the eating bowls? Are they objects? Are they just bowls? Are they just bowls? What is the nature of an eating bowl? And what about the food? What is it? And what is it? Is it just food? And what is just food? Is the body just mechanical?

[55:23]

Someone said, when I was up in the city, not to me, but a friend of mine said to me, somebody said to her, you have so much energy, do you eat a lot? What's your secret? Do you eat a lot? It was like his idea was, food is fuel. If you have a lot of energy, you have to take in a lot of fuel. Is it like that? When you pick up the bowl, what is it you're picking up? Do you think about it? There's probably some perception, idea, I'm picking up a bowl. Or there's not so much of an idea, it's just more of the same, going through the motions

[56:25]

to get on the food. Maybe it comes down to something important later, or something more meaningful during an assassin or a break. But what is it you pick up? What do you pick up? Do you pick up the effort that people in the kitchen made for the work that went into the food? The township job? Gasoline? Farming? Do you pick up

[57:31]

When you pick up the bowl, do you pick up mountains and sky? Do you pick up Do you pick up the tree? And what about that beast? That wild person? Why don't you let the wild person touch that bowl? Or is it just the conventional person who touches that bowl?

[58:46]

Or you could say, you know, tell you what, you know, you'd be the bowl today, and I'll be the one picking it up, and tomorrow, you know, or in a minute, you know, we can switch off. You could have the conventional person pick up the wild person, and vice versa. ... Anyway, in the process of... if you want to work on digesting, to absorb things... It's unlimited, it's free. Or you can pick up whatever you want to pick up, although it looks like a bowl, but it's

[60:47]

It's unlimited. It's free. [...]

[61:20]

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