Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truths of Atatagata's words. If we really want to taste the truth of Atatagata's words, perhaps we should sit here and listen to the creek. However, we seem to have decided that we're willing to venture into the weeds and take a look at them together.

[01:09]

We haven't done this before this practice period, and I haven't done this before this practice period or other practice periods. So if you've done this before, you're at least one up on me. So I don't know exactly what we do at these events. So I leave it up to you now, at this point, if you have something to talk about. Yeah. I recently read in Ekin Roshi's book, he was talking about the necessity of having a teacher, and he said, without a teacher you can't let go fully,

[02:16]

and zazen by itself is a sterile exercise in concentration. Did you find that to be so? No, it didn't especially ring true for me. But it brought up the question, what is zen practice? What goes into zen practice besides sitting meditation? It feels a little funny to phrase it that way, because it makes it sound like sitting meditation is some thing. Okay. Shall I start over completely? I couldn't hear.

[03:19]

Ekin Roshi said that without a teacher, zazen is a sterile exercise in concentration, which didn't especially ring true for me, but it did bring up the question, what is there to zen practice that goes along with sitting meditation? Well, what else goes along with your life?

[04:29]

Or what is it that goes on in sitting meditation? I think from moment to moment we notice particular things. So while we're sitting we may notice, oh, I'm following my breath or I'm not following my breath. And then if that is what we're noticing, and we've decided that's what's important to us, and we congratulate ourselves when we notice that we're following our breath more often than some other day when we didn't follow our breath so much, I don't know, that's what I think about as exercising concentration. So what do we notice? What do we pay attention to?

[05:40]

And what do we keep track of? And what difference does it make? All those things that we keep track of. What difference does it make? Whether we saw more red today than yellow, or more green. Does it make a difference? It makes a difference if you're trying to see white. Yeah, it makes a difference if you're trying to see white. So what is it, finally, that we're trying to do? And whether we call it a teacher, exactly, or not, it's hard for any one of us to notice that we're looking for white, and we're finding a lot of green and blue, or yellow, and we're discouraged, and we didn't realize we were looking for white.

[06:45]

And we thought it was really important to get more white. Does this make any sense, what I'm talking about? I lost the white part. Jonathan said it makes a difference. I said, what difference does it make if you see more green or more blue? I got that. Jonathan said it makes a big difference if you're looking for white. Right. What did you mean? If you're aiming for a particular state of mind called enlightenment. Or concentration. Sitting still, being a Buddha. And for you, that's involved with particular characteristics as they arise. Sometimes, if we understand, at the same time,

[08:11]

if we understand that the teacher is just something outside of us, then that would be a mistake. Because we also sometimes notice that, and we also can remind ourselves of that teaching once we have it pointed out to us one way or another. We can remind ourselves of the teaching, of that kind of teaching. What difference does it make? Whether I'm enlightened, or I'm not enlightened, or I sit still, or don't sit still, or follow my breath, or don't follow my breath. Last year, in the window, I said, I realized I was a nice person.

[09:12]

People have been telling me for years that I'm a nice person. I didn't quite believe them. And it goes like this. It's the difference between, sometimes a nice person makes mistakes. Sometimes a nice person isn't perfect. Sometimes a nice person has problems. But I always thought, I have problems. I must not be a nice person. I must be messed up. Oh, I'm still not perfect. I must be messed up. I must not be a nice person. Oh, such and such happened. Oh, I guess I'm not perfect. I guess I have problems. I must not be a nice person. So, a teacher has something to do with our, how do we, it's very hard for any one of us, by ourself, to,

[10:18]

how do we finally step out of our logic like that? And observing the facts, observing that I'm sad, or I am lonely, or somebody is angry at me, and I observe that, and what does that have to do with the kind of person I am? So, if we identify, we have some habit of identifying with events and circumstances, and then we have no solid ground. And we're all the time concerned about getting events and circumstances to affirm me in some way,

[11:25]

demonstrate the kind of person, demonstrate to me that I really am a particular kind of person. It's very tiring. So anyway, someone else can help us let go of that. Like another simple example, when I was first practicing, oh, I don't know, maybe just a few months, I went to a dōsan with Suzuki Roshi and I said, I sit in zazen and I try to follow my breath but I can't stop thinking, maybe, what shall I do? He said, oh, is there some problem about that?

[12:30]

What's the problem about that? And when he said that, I know, I couldn't think of any problem about it. I thought there was some problem about thinking so much, but he didn't seem to think so, and I thought about it and I couldn't find any problem. After that, though, once someone, or sometimes, you know, circumstances, it's not just the teacher, and there's all sorts of stories of the stone hitting the bamboo, or, you know, somebody dropping, this morning I dropped my spoon, and I think all the practice theaters were flubbing up this morning. Paul kind of tipped his bowls over,

[13:34]

and I dropped my spoon on the floor, and I think Mel dropped something on the floor, although I can't see. A bowl. A bowl, yeah, I can't see. Altar. Anyway, you know, people have gotten enlightened when those things happen. That great Chinese Zen master, whoever it is, Shu Yuan, yeah, the 20th century Zen teacher, when he was probably about 55 or something, he'd been practicing Zen for 35 years or something, and he was in meditation or something, and he was having these far-out things, like he'd be sitting there, and he'd be able to see the river two miles away, you know, and all the people in the boats out of the river and stuff. But he still wasn't enlightened, so he says. And then he dropped, or somebody dropped a teacup on the floor, and it broke, and then his mind broke at the same time.

[14:37]

Or came apart. Some way. Anyway, so there's... It doesn't seem like when we say a teacher, it means necessarily that the teacher is some person. Or is something outside. Yes? This actually sort of relates in a roundabout way. For a while now, the past couple of practice periods, I've been studying the Sado Kai, and going over line by line, trying to figure things out or apply it. And a line that helps me quite a bit is the last one, which is, you know, don't waste time. I hope they say to those who study the ministry,

[15:40]

don't waste time. And on the surface, it seems like one of the easier and more straightforward lines. Well, don't waste time. Don't completely abandon yourselves to distraction. Sit zazen, practice hard, be good. You got it. You get the meaning. I mean, until I started thinking about it, it just seemed like a very straightforward line. But the more I started thinking about it, the more I realized that for me, it's probably, in a way, the key line in the whole thing. Because I have to ask myself what wasting time is. And the questions that occur to me are, Well, you know, so, you know, you spent your life, I know, going to movies every night and stuff like that. Is that wasting time? Well, it seems like there are better things you could do.

[16:41]

If you're really trying to accomplish the way, get enlightened, maybe there are better things to do. So, um... Don't steal my lines. I'm kidding. I'm leading most slowly to this. I'm kidding. So, um, so anyhow, so here we are, wasting time. And the questions that occur to me are things like, you know, can I be wasting time on my zazen? Can I be wasting time in the monastery? Can I be wasting time just going through the appearances of practice? But then I have to ask, well, you know, is there anything else but the appearance? You know, is there some essence? Or is it just, you know, sort of a random arrangement of appearances? Is there some reality behind it? Is there something I should be looking for beyond the random,

[17:45]

or the apparently random things that we do? Is it enough, these appearances? Is every point of view equally valid? Is going to the movies as valid or as not valid as sitting in zazen? Can we waste our time? Is all of our time equally precious or equally meaningless? Is every action as good as every other action? So who's going to decide all that? Well, I was hoping you would. I was hoping you would. But anyhow, you know, the line that you seem to be taking in this and other talks you've given

[18:48]

seems to be on one side of the balance scale, which seems to be saying that all things are equally valid, or what does it matter anyway. And yet, when I look back at what Buddhism has said, or at least written, what has come down to us over the ages, you know, I agree that there are indeed some things which are more important than others, that there are also states of concentration which supposedly must be acquired before enlightenment comes about, and that it isn't just a matter of different points of view all being equally valid, but that some are indeed wasting time, and some are indeed directed to the goal. Now, I know it's fashionable to say, well, we practice in a non-acquisitive way, but for myself, at least when I say that kind of stuff,

[19:49]

I have to wonder how much of that is just being lazy, or how much of that comes from the spirit of being actually able to do the real thing. Now, I don't know if all of this ties up with the last question, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on some of that. Well, aside from who's going to decide, on what basis would it be possible to decide? Well, one basis is the experience of people who have trodden the path and have left us their records. The words of the Buddha. Or other teachers who have come down and said this in the commentaries. I'm not saying it's necessarily the way, I'm saying it's one way.

[20:55]

I mean, if you want to learn to play tennis, you take lessons maybe from the best teacher you can find. He knows how to do it. Yes, but still there won't be any substitute for hitting the ball. So, there's what basis, who, or what basis, and then what would be the process?

[22:05]

So, and it seems to me the process would be something like, we need to set up or establish some, so we need to have some measure of what we can do. We need to have some basis. And we need to take some moment in which we observe what's going on, and then we take hold of that moment, we grasp it, we pick it up, and we inspect it, we look at it. And then we compare it to, we pick up in our other hand, as it were,

[23:13]

in the mind's eye, some other moment, which is a moment of, you know, what are we going to compare the first moment to? We're going to check and see whether it's a waste of time or not. So, what are the characteristics of that moment compared to some other moment? And when I say what is the basis, what about that other moment? What's that other moment like that we can compare the present moment or some moment that we want to check, was that a waste of time or not? And look at the two. Does it make sense? We have to go through some process like that to determine whether or not it's a waste of time. Or we have to, it seems like to say it's a waste of time implies,

[24:30]

you know, that there's some activity that isn't a waste of time. So, what is the nature of a moment that's not a waste of time? What characterizes such a moment? How can we tell? Well, you could say a moment that is not a waste of time, is not marked by greed, hate and delusion perhaps. Or that it involves seeing directly into the nature of reality. Or that it is a moment that, positively speaking, is involved with compassion, sympathetic joy, friendliness and equanimity.

[25:39]

There's various ways of talking about it. And the other moment is a moment ruled by the passions. I mean, I have a feeling that there's some difference between, I don't know, going hunting and pulling the gun on a bunny rabbit and, I don't know, taking care of somebody. I mean, to me that's going to seem like equally valid, or useful, or worthwhile things to do. Well, what's...

[27:05]

Well, once we start to think about it and discriminate, some things will be worthwhile and other things won't. And we can make those distinctions. And we can say that hunting bunny rabbits is not as worthwhile as sitting meditation. But what about... What about the floor, or the tan, or the lamps?

[28:18]

Are they wasting time? Or the maple trees, or the rocks in the creek? But they don't have the ability to create karma, as we do. And what is it about the ability to create karma? It's the ability to cause, or I suppose relieve suffering. Cause what? Cause or relieve suffering. Cause or relieve suffering. And to cause suffering would be not wasting time.

[29:54]

I mean, to cause suffering would be to waste time. At least, not to abuse it. That sounds alright to me. But what do you think about that? Yes. Well, isn't wasting time just not being able to cause it? Yes. And what's the basis for that, for deciding whether or not you're in the present?

[31:00]

Just your point of view. Just your point of view? Yeah, cause you're always in the present. It's just your attitude. And when you notice that you're not in the present? When you're in the present. I mean, when you notice you're already in the present? Yeah. It's just to notice it. Yes.

[32:12]

And good and bad is a separate kind of thing. It's not the same thing as time. Yes. Yes. I don't see causing suffering as wasting time. If someone wants to kill someone and doesn't waste time to do it, and does it right away, then he doesn't waste time. I don't think there are any objective standards for wasting time. I think we can make up any standard we want to, and use the Buddhist scripture for that. Or Christian, or other scriptures, or make up our own.

[33:34]

But, if we choose to make up some standards for wasting time, and then not live up to them, this is something I could call wasting time. But again, this is just something I could choose to call wasting time. And I would do so, choose it. Simply because it doesn't make sense to vow to save all sentient beings, and then sit on a bag of rice and call it a day. It would just not make sense to me. And that's as far as I would go, because there can be no other objective standard for wasting time. Maybe that's the point.

[34:45]

To live in a court is to live in a court. Dan? I have a question that has to do with living in a court, living in a court in the present moment. It comes from the lectures we've had, talking about accepting the situation, accepting circumstances, this moment, accepting the inconvenience. Accepting a situation, or accepting this moment, or accepting the present moment, accepting the inconvenience people talk about. Maybe that's using time, or not wasting time. But then, I've been wondering, does that mean to just sort of passively just look at this? It seems like,

[35:47]

we had the example of last session, people who had bad backs, didn't necessarily adjust to the position as usual, but made some acceptance of their situation. Now I have a bad back and I have to make some adjustments to the position. The way it looks is a bit better, but I don't want to cripple myself. So, that's sort of using time in a different way, accepting this time in some other way. Doing something. So I guess I'm wondering, when is accepting time, so just watching it, when is accepting time in some response to doing something, or bringing up some question, or taking some action? How do you decide when to? How do you decide when to do this? When is it wasting time to try and do something, to try and fix the situation? When is it wasting time to to just sit there and ignore what's going on?

[36:49]

Peter? I think that the intention to do something about suffering is not so mysterious. What was that? I think that the intention that we have to do something about suffering is not something so mysterious. Wasting time, using time. We have an intention. And, I think we can look at what we do with things around us, and how we do it, and how that leads to our intention. And, we catch up on what it is that we do. Transport yourself and realize 10,000 pounds

[38:02]

is basically the vision. You need it. It says when the myriad things advance forward, and you realize yourself, that is nothing. And so, the way I take that is that the myriad things, the things around us, the rocks and trees and the winds, the moments of time that we pass through, the obstacles in our life, the relationships, all of those things, they can advance forward and you can engage with them. And that is the gateway from what we do. by unwitting,

[39:04]

I don't mean anything except leaving that intention to suffer. So, when I think of wasting time, what occurs to me is that that would be like missing those moments of time, not using those moments of time, not having them advance to us. And, I guess it also relates to being in the present. If you're in the present, you're engaged with everything around you, with the colors in the lens, and the color. And, I think,

[40:06]

I think time can be the same way. Maybe, maybe we can attract this meaning from this directly to us, the sound of the stream. Time is quite slippery. I think that we learn how to meet those moments of time that come to us and use them, and engage with them. It's like the epitome of how not to waste time, how to meet new things. It seems like quite a

[41:18]

question you just brought up. It's been a question for me. Maybe this is before we get into this, this idea of wasting time. Especially since sitting is an answer for me here. It's felt to me like I've tried to force myself into believing that sitting on a cushion is not wasting time. As opposed to other practices I might do, such as

[42:19]

running up a hill, practicing yoga, or fixing a water pipe. It seems to give you nowhere to evaluate those things. There was a question there was a statement brought up a couple of times by people in the community that make mistakes such as I just do Zen, or he just does Zen. It's kind of that kind of guilt. The way I used to think of that is the form of Zen. For me, the form of Zen usually brings to mind putting on a robe and coming to Zen by way of sitting on a cushion

[43:23]

or doing some studying. Of course, then there's the idea of practicing in Japan and taking the form of Japanese and American study of Buddhism and what their form of Buddhism is. The other day you were talking about Hatha Yoga and trying to put together through Hatha Yoga some semblance of the sitting posture that will enable you to do Zazen. It will enable you to practice sitting still. The way to think of it I spent many hours thinking of just that question.

[44:26]

Here I am practicing Hatha Yoga in a monastery and it seems like in a monastery available time should be spent sitting on a cushion. So the idea of wasting time is present a lot of the time in doing other things besides Zen. And I guess where I find myself now is it's just all mind trips. When I think about things everything is possible. When I'm just doing one thing it's not thought of anymore. I'm just doing one thing.

[45:28]

The idea like that when you speak of the spirit of Zen practice that's where the spirit is. That's where the breath is and that's where the breath is. Here's the thing that finding a way to sit quietly regardless of the ball maybe you should have hit the ball back there when it happened. Maybe you did a bad thing. Or you did something that you shouldn't have done or you didn't do something you should have done. That's quite possible. But now is the time to do something about it. You can't do anything about having missed it then. So what are we going to do about what are we going to do about our karma

[46:31]

now? That opportunity is always there. Does that sound too corny? That's like the corny version of that is that phrase that people have bumper stickers of what's it today is the first day of the rest of my life. Okay. Well, that corny thing is based on this. That's kind of a cliché. But it shows how Buddhist ideas are interpreted. There it is. The final justification for our practice. No. I think it really does. Actually, it's kind of a Buddhist idea in a hokey fashion. But now is when we can do something about our life. But that doesn't mean we have to do some fancy-dalancy kind of thing about it.

[47:32]

We just... We don't. Richard? The other day in study after we changed the time when we did the chant, the hana started and I started chanting. We'd already done the chant. And it felt a little silly. And I was wondering about your example of Suzuki Roshan running into the wall as an example of right effort. It felt more like stuck on what's the difference between not being mindful and kind of right effort. Right effort.

[48:54]

I guess I would say you win either way. Maybe that's too easy. Somehow my feeling about... And also I think it's... And also I think it has to do with habit. And maybe there are two... two... Buddhism always comes in handy because there's always two ways of understanding something, OK? The provisional and the absolute. Very handy. Two ways of understanding it. One is the kind of provisional way is...

[49:55]

I'm not sure that it was a habit. I'm not sure Suzuki Roshan's jumping up and running. Maybe it was a habit. But anyway, he said sometimes that we need some strong good habits to balance the negative habits that we have. So in that way, you know, you hear the Han, you start to chant. That's a good habit to have. Because it's not do I want to chant, not want to chant. My stomach hurts. Oh, here we have to chant again. You know, it's just... The Han starts, you chant. Maybe in an absolute way. But it's also good not to chant.

[51:02]

It's also good to realize, oh, the schedule has changed and now we do something differently. And again, mindfulness is not something that you apply to certain... It's not some special trick that we apply at certain times. So, the moment you, the moment you start chanting it to the stake in place, the moment you realize it, then that, you're mindful of realizing it, and you're mindful of your embarrassment. And that mindfulness is some way of, I don't know what to call it, undercut, it undercuts,

[52:16]

it takes the strength out of the form, what it, you know, Layla was saying, it, you know, when you're mindful of it, it, I don't remember what she was saying exactly, it softens, it softens it, or it, it forgets itself, thank you. That forgetting itself, that's called emptiness. That's a kind of, I was thinking to myself, you know, we say fourfold mindfulness, but actually the fifth one is mindful of emptiness. So for Mahayana, it's kind of a Mahayana mindfulness practice, you know, it's permeating all the other four, is mindful of emptiness. But mindfulness itself is, it's kind of a, anyway, my, my feeling about it is that it's, it's an expression of that kind of emptiness. So I don't feel like that's exactly answering what you asked, Richard, that's what happened.

[53:35]

Shall we cease and desist? Go to work? Thank you. [...]

[54:04]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ