Once again, I'm a little surprised to be sitting up here giving the talk, and I think it must mean that I'm somebody besides the person I usually think that I am, because I don't usually think of myself as having much worthwhile to say, and yet many people come if I do a talk. But maybe you were just coming anyway. A while back, somebody told me about some research, and you know, I don't know if this is true, but it makes a good story, right? But they did a survey of people who had heart disease, and they asked the people who didn't have heart disease, and they asked the people, do you have an intimate relationship in your life? And some people said yes, and other people said no. I guess

[01:10]

implicit in that is, do you have an intimate relationship with another person? But they also found that people who have pets have less heart disease than the people who don't. The people who have a heart attack and then have an operation of some sort and they come back home if they have pets, then they don't go back to the hospital for the next one as soon as the people who don't have pets. So do you have an intimate relationship? And then when I talked about this, I mentioned it to a friend of mine who said, I guess that means that for all the heartache of a relationship, it must be good for your heart. This is very

[02:14]

interesting, isn't it? In my practice these days, I think about, this is one of the things I think about, how is it that we can, or I can, strengthen and open my heart and actually in some way benefit or become more whole by having the heartache that goes along with opening one's heart?

[03:15]

Because sometimes, this last winter for me has been pretty difficult. Some days I seem to be fine and it's a nice day and everything and then I'll just start crying. And it's no particular reason. And then people say, well what is it? I wouldn't know. It's just being alive it seems like. But it reminded me after a while of a poem. There's a wonderful sonnet by Rilke where he says, be ahead of all parting as though it already were behind you. Like the winter that has just passed by. For among these winters, there's one so endlessly winter that only by wintering through it will your heart survive. There's

[04:31]

more but I'll leave you with that for now. Somehow we tend to think that there might be some better way to open our hearts or to enjoy our life or to be happy in our life without having to have the heartache that goes along with life. Someone said to me recently that I heard that Rilke at one point in his life couldn't write. So one of his women friends who had apparently also been the lover of Nietzsche and Freud said, why don't you have some, you know, you should have some therapy to get some analysis. And he refused.

[05:38]

He felt that the angels that gave him his voice came from the same place as the demons that kept him from talking. So he worried about getting rid of the demons. That then he would no longer have a voice either. That's quite interesting. But it also shows a tremendous level of confidence or trust just in the process of being alive. Only by wintering through it and just wintering through it when it's winter and not trying to create a kind of instant summer. I think when I started

[06:45]

practicing Zen, I didn't, you know, I didn't understand that good and evil were in me. I thought that other people had those problems. And I thought I would be, you know, a good Zen student and just do what good Zen students did. So at tea time, other people would rush for the cookie. So I would compliment myself on the fact that I was restrained. And those people were so greedy. Of course, things have changed. You know, now we've, I spent the fall at Tassajara. And when I was first at

[07:49]

Tassajara, we had a tea treat and there was like one cookie per person. Something like that, you know. And they would be different sizes. So you could get a little one or a bigger one, depending on how fast you were. Now, the tea time at Tassajara, there's cookies and granola and bread and butter and peanut butter and jam and honey and some leftover salad and maybe some fruit from breakfast and some yogurt. And it's kind of like a fourth meal. So you don't have to worry. You can come into tea anytime and, you know, enjoy plenty of food. Makes practice easier. But I remember one

[08:53]

of the first times that I noticed, you know, that I had something like this in me. I had been the cook there at Tassajara. And one time Mrs. Suzuki came to Tassajara to visit her husband, Suzuki Rishi, and visit Tassajara. And so somehow while she was there, she gave me a box of planters mixed with salted nuts. This was a big deal. You know, in the context of one cookie a day, I thought, gee, you know, I must be doing something right. I must really be, you know, this is really nice. The wife of the abbot has given me a box of nuts. Of course, I'll just, you know, I'll be sure to share these with everybody. So I kept them in my room, waiting for the time to share them, you know, a good time.

[10:10]

You know, some occasion. And so they stayed there, you know, a week or two weeks. And about three weeks later, I hadn't found any occasion to share them. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll just sort of try them out. I'll just have a few and then I'll share the rest. So one day I had a few nuts. And, you know, in my room. And they were really good. They were salty. And they were greasy. They had a lot of nice oils in them. They were toasty. They were exquisitely delicious. I savored every mouthful. I just had a few mouthfuls, though, and I thought, now I'll save the rest and I'll, you know, tomorrow I can. So I just had a few nuts each day for about two weeks.

[11:32]

Until the box was gone. And I thought, well, it looks like maybe I'm not the person I thought I was. Maybe I am greedy, too. It was a little hard for me to admit, you know, but I couldn't come to really any other conclusion. In those days, we, you know, often would emphasize this kind of fact of when you're, when one is in a kind of community as small as a Tassajara or a Gringotts, it's much more obvious that things, everything belongs to everybody.

[12:39]

In some sense. That it's not mine or yours alone. The food isn't mine or yours, or I can make sure that I appropriate my share of it. So it's quite obvious in that situation that if I eat the whole box of nuts, well, nobody else got any. But we're all part of this same community, you know, sharing what we have. And this came up again a few years later. Actually, not so much later, but a couple of years later, there was a lot of rain one winter and, you know, the road washed out that comes into Tassajara. There was a huge rock about the size of a small cabin that slid down onto the road and the bulldozer couldn't push it off.

[13:46]

So they decided to wait until everything stabilized before they dynamited it, the county road crew. So that meant that the road was blocked. And then there was another part of the road where the water had been coming down the hill and it, and instead of going down the road, it went right across the road. And pretty soon the road went along and then it went down 12 feet and then back up to the road level like this and it was about 10 feet across. So it was fairly impossible to drive. And there were other places the road was out and so there were trees down on the road. We hadn't understood at that time that this might happen and so as the cook, I had neglected to put in a lot of food for the winter. So we didn't have much to eat. Now in that situation I felt like, well, this food is everybody's, we should all share in it.

[14:51]

But not everybody seemed to think that way, you know, they would come into the kitchen at night and take food. So I decided it was up to me to defend the communal food. This is a very well-known story actually. I hear this story from more people. So now I'm going to give you the official version. You know, people say, is it true that you had a knife in your hand? Did you actually threaten that person? What did you do? It was an unusual winter.

[15:53]

We went out and gathered wild greens. I know two or three people each day spent several hours out picking miner's lettuce and curly duck. So most days for lunch we had a miner's lettuce salad and then often times for dinner we would have cooked curly duck. Curly duck, it's rather like spinach but it's more lemony. It's pretty good. Anyway, I thought in the kitchen there was a griddle in the corner of the kitchen and we used to keep a piece of plywood on top of it so that you could use it as an extra counter space. We had a very small kitchen until the new one was built. And so I sat there after zazen at night and it didn't take long. In a few minutes somebody came into the kitchen.

[16:56]

The kitchen was dark. So the person went right over to the stove and in those days we used to keep the... This was sort of stupid but we'd put all the leftovers in a pot on the stove overnight. This was our gruel so we could eat up the leftovers. And we'd heat it up in the morning and serve it for breakfast. Anyway, so the person came right over to the gruel pot and started just reaching in and grabbing out clumps of rice and whatever was in there. That's how hungry he was. And I just sat there. He was only about three feet away from me. In the dark. And then he looked up at me and he said, Shit man. This isn't fair.

[17:59]

And I didn't say anything. And I didn't have a knife. Then he left. He went out. But that was unusual. It was an unusual time. Because it actually seemed like we could run out of food. And it was quite obvious that the food we had belonged to everybody. It turned out we did some things that weren't particularly practical. We'd had a hundred pound bag of whole wheat berries for grinding into flour. But the grinder never really worked very well.

[19:03]

So we started serving the wheat berries. And we would cook a sort of a gruel with white rice and some wheat berries. Anyway, if you're familiar with wheat berries, they're kind of a little hard to chew, even if you cook them a long time. And later on that spring, it turned out there was a plumbing problem outside the house. Outside the dormitory. And Reb was the plumber in those days. Our venerable abbot. So he opened up the drain there and it was clogged with wheat berries. Oh my. Thanks.

[20:07]

I mentioned this kind of story. You know, not so long ago I did one of my one day retreats here. Afterwards I had a fairly long talk with a fellow who had been at the retreat that day. And he was telling me a little bit about his relationship he'd been having with a woman. And that he hadn't been in a relationship for some time. But now he was in a relationship with this woman. But he didn't feel as though he had, you know, he loved her the way that he ought to. Or the way that she would like him to. And it was pretty obvious, you know, that the reason why he hadn't been in a relationship for five years was that he wouldn't be able to do it the way that it should be done.

[21:29]

And make it be the way it ought to be. And he said, well I feel a lot of affection and I feel this is someone I could live with. But I don't feel the kind of love. A strong kind of love. And I don't feel the kind of commitment. And yet it's important to me, this relationship. And I kind of wondered, well what choice do you have? He said, you know, I don't want to be experimenting on somebody. Do you understand? I don't want to be pretending. I don't want to be experimenting. I don't want to be in this relationship

[22:31]

where it's not a real relationship. Or it's not what it should be. Or could be. Or I could imagine. Do you understand? Here's the kind of problem for the heart. And somebody who, like all of us, is wondering, well, shall I have the heartache? Shall I be in a situation that might not work? We might end up hating each other. I might make a real effort here and it might not work out. So what shall I do? Well, you know, there was a pretty stark contrast

[23:33]

that he had been so worried about it for five years that he hadn't been in any relationship. And now he was just starting to take on this kind of, you know, to come up to this kind of contradiction. Or this kind of, you know, question of the heart. This kind of question of, you know, if I trust and if I make a commitment does that mean everything will be alright? You know, and we know sometimes it isn't alright. And we struggle. And we have heartache and pain. And we find out, you know,

[24:33]

I'm also the greedy person. You know, I'm the, I'm also the protective person. And sometimes in those, you know, situations it's hard to see one's own, to know one's own heart. What is it we really want in our life? And what is it we'll make a commitment to or for? ... Also, when I was a cook at Tassajara

[25:53]

we used to have a lot of rice. We had... We were trying to be good Zen people, you know. So we had rice every day. And in fact, because there was many Zen macrobiotics, you know, so-called Zen macrobiotics. I don't know how familiar you are with macrobiotics, but, you know, the ultimate in macrobiotics is the number 7 diet, something like that, you know, 95 or 100% brown rice. This is an attainment. ... Anyway, setting aside macrobiotics for the time being, we ate a lot of brown rice and then once every 5 days, on the 4 and 9 days we'd have white rice. ... And then we'd have cereal in the morning and, as I've mentioned sometimes, you know, so one morning like we had oatmeal and then I put raisins

[26:59]

in the oatmeal and then the macrobiotics come and say, how could you do that, you know. You're poisoning us. All that sugar. And then they say, macrobiotics is to purify your heart. And if you eat right, then you'll be peaceful. But if you don't, you know, you might get sort of hot under the collar about what somebody else is, you know, serving you. ... Oh boy. So I knew Suzuki Roshi liked potatoes. ... So Sesshin one time, at the end of our 7 day meditation, I thought, well serve potatoes. So we baked potatoes, we had baked potatoes and I had them all washed and we put them in the oven. And there's certain things, you know, if you just don't do them regularly, you know, you don't understand, right. But here were these dozens of potatoes in the oven and it turns out

[28:02]

it takes a really long time to bake those potatoes. I couldn't believe it. ... And as you know, in Zen, when the bell rings, the food is served. ... ... So even though these potatoes have been baking for 2 hours, you know, if you put a lot into those big ovens, it cools the oven way down. And it takes a lot of heat to get into all those potatoes. If you just have a little oven at home and a couple potatoes in there, it's fine, you know. So the cookbooks don't tell you what to do, you know, they don't tell you like if you're cooking for 50 and you want to fill up 2 or 3 shelves of your oven with potatoes, you know, turn the heat up higher or whatever, you know. ... ... So I watched Suzuki Roshi try to eat his potato.

[29:06]

... ... You know, everybody was so delighted. He was obviously delighted. Potatoes. And we probably served a little sour cream with them, maybe some butter. ... [...]

[30:09]

... [...]

[31:19]

... [...]

[32:25]

... [...]

[33:27]

... [...]

[34:31]

... [...]

[35:42]

... [...]

[36:46]

... [...]

[37:54]

... [...]

[39:02]

... [...]

[40:07]

... [...]

[41:12]

... [...]

[42:18]

... [...]

[43:20]

... [...]

[44:35]

... ... no more worry about not being perfect, right? And interestingly enough, you know, it really helps to enjoy things. You know, when I do cooking classes, the people who were least interested in food or the

[45:40]

taste of anything were people who had, you know, eating problems. And I wanted to try to say, you know, just, can you just taste something and appreciate the taste and enjoy the taste and actually to enjoy something, we have to be present. We have to pay attention. Then we have to open ourself and we have to receive something and we have to let it touch our heart. And then we have joy. So, the simple things in our life in that way can be refreshing and energizing and nourishing. A poem, a short poem by Ryokan, he says, the mind, Buddha is your mind and the way

[46:56]

goes nowhere. Isn't that nice? Buddha is your mind and the way goes nowhere. So, don't point your card north when you want to go south. You don't need to chase after so many things. You know, I don't really think of myself or feel that I have, you know, any answers

[48:12]

particularly and because, you know, life seems pretty difficult. It's pretty much a struggle, but I do have this kind of, you know, confidence or trust in acknowledging one's heart and what one finds in one's heart and to know one's heart and acknowledge, you know, our good heartedness. Then even if we don't have, you know, the answers or the solutions to the problems, the inevitable kinds of problems in our own life and in the world, at least we have, you know, and can share this warm heartedness or good heartedness with one another. And with the parts of our own being that are in distress.

[49:13]

Okay? So, thank you for coming today and sharing your heart this way. I got tired of telling my cooking classes to shut up and listen to what I have to say. So now I bring a little bell and I give the instruction at the beginning of the class. When I hit the bell, then everybody has to, you know, we do that little mindfulness thing that so you have to be quiet, stop moving and breathe three breaths before you start again and give me the first chance to talk. But that seems much, you know, nicer than trying to get quiet. Well, what's news?

[50:17]

How are you doing? It's a nice spring, huh? It's been so wet. I have a little poem here, I thought I'd bring you a little poem today. I came across this poem yesterday, I don't know whose it is. It's on this piece of paper and it doesn't say, you know, the title or where it's from or anything. Crying only a little bit is no use. You must cry until your pillow is soaked. Then you can get up and laugh. Then you can jump in the shower and splash, splash, splash. Then you can throw open your window and ha, ha, ha, ha. And if people say, hey, what's going on up there, ha, ha, you sing back, happiness was hiding in the last tear. I wept it, ha, ha. I thought, I like that. Well, what's news?

[51:20]

Yes. You told some very funny stories this morning and everyone was sitting there laughing and having a good time. But I was thinking, and I was laughing also, but I was thinking to myself, if I was eating hard potatoes or at the end of that mashed potato line. You wouldn't be laughing. You have to view these things from the right place. But the trick is, and this is what I would like my practice to be, is to be able to see if you were in the moment instead of having to hear it second hand or appreciate it a week later. Well, that may be a little too idealistic. I don't know. No. I think if you, I don't know, it does help me to look for and acknowledge my own, as

[52:27]

I said, my own intention or effort in other people's, you know, in the situation. You know, to just to look for virtue or, you know, good heartedness. Even so, sometimes I'm able to do that anyway at the time. And it may not be that it's funny at the time, but I can see that, I can acknowledge, oh, somebody has made a sincere effort. Do you understand? I mean, it may not be funny, but I can notice that and I can feel or know my own, that I made that kind of effort and acknowledge that or somebody else did. And then, which is not the same as, you know, being able to enjoy a good laugh, but it's still, you know, healing the situation and keeps me from further sufferings that might

[53:30]

arise, such as, you know, anger, resentment or... Great. But this is the boat we're all in, you know, is that... We can't, you know, we can't control what happens, so we don't know what will happen, what will come our way in our life. And so, sometimes we're tempted to try to organize everything so that we get only the good experiences and not the bad experiences, or we get, you know, it all works the way it should, and we're trying to organize it like that, and at the same time, we're trying to be ready for whatever comes and to meet it with our best wish or our good-heartedness. So, in some ways, they're a little bit different, those two agendas that we have.

[54:31]

And so, to be noticing one's good-heartedness or acknowledging that and trying to practice that, it doesn't mean we should stop trying to plan and organize and, you know, create a good situation. But then... But we can see that our effort needs to be a little larger than just making it perfect or making it right. Yes? You're sitting? I wasn't quite sure where you were going with that, and I was recalling you say that he was looking for this perfection in this relationship that he had, that he wasn't accepting what was, and he wasn't taking the risk. And while we look for...

[55:38]

We look for that perfection instead of being what we... What I was trying to bring out by that, talking about, the person that I talked about who came up to me and we talked after the retreat, who was in a fairly new relationship, but he was concerned about not having the appropriate kinds of feelings that he should be having or that he thought the other person wanted him to be having. And so he was hesitating to be in the relationship. And what the point I was trying to make to him and then, you know, bringing it up here was that, well, what's the alternative? The alternative is the five years he spent not being in any relationship. And so all we can do is, you know, be honest and clear, as honest and clear as we can about

[56:40]

what's happening with us, and then put it out into the world. And we don't know, and then he said, you know, I don't want to be experimenting on somebody. And implicit in that is just that, you know, this may not work, and this... You know, and this may not, and what I have to offer may not be what this other person wants or expects. But if we're not going to, I mean, somehow we need to be able to trust in life to, you know, that we're going to put our heart into things, and then all kinds of things are going to happen that we didn't know about. But otherwise we're going to be, you know, holding ourselves back all the time and isolated and never involved in anything. Which seemed... And I could appreciate the person, you know, this is somebody who's rather

[57:40]

sincere, and in some ways a rather sweet person. You know, and rather careful, and in a sense too careful. Because he wants it to be, you know, more tidy than it can be. But there was a real honesty there about, here's where I'm at, and I don't see any alternative but to, you know, to share that with the world, here's where I'm at. Instead of trying to... I mean, because I've done it, you know, I've tried to pretend the kind of love that I'm supposed to be having. What if I'm found out? And I've tried to talk myself into those things because it was... And that's ended up being awfully, you know, painful and embarrassing.

[58:41]

You know, much worse than what would come of being honest. You know, being who you are, or in the situation, and actually acknowledging your good heartedness and your good wish, and not wanting to hurt, but also, you know, you're only a human being, you don't know what's going to happen, and what else can we do? Partly this came up for me again because I had this dream recently of... I was at a dinner party and there was a woman I know who was there, and she's written a book, and it's been very well received, and so we're having an enjoyable dinner party, and then her husband comes and they go off on this motorcycle that has no handlebars. And I'm going like, wait a minute, like, how can you do that? And she says, don't, you know, it's okay, you know, if you just trust,

[59:46]

it will go where you want it to go. And then I see them, you know, going along here, south of Stinkson Beach, you know, along the cliffs here. And I go like, wow, that's really true, it really works just like that, it just stays right on the road, that's amazing. And then the next thing is I see her coming straight towards me and going right off the edge. And her husband's no longer with her on the motorcycle, and then there she is going straight over the edge and screaming. But it seems to me that's what our trust does. You know, to be able to trust means that, you know, what we're trusting finally is that we can go over the edge and that that's actually the direction we need, that's what we need to do in our life is go over the edge. There's not much support around that. No, there's not a lot of support around that. And you actually have to be rather careful about that, you know, and you want to be in a, you know, and when you're going over the edge

[60:48]

you want to try to be in a situation that's supportive. And also you try to develop enough of your, you know, you try to have a strong enough or, you know, enough of a practice, so to speak, that you take care of yourself even though you're over the edge. You know, so that's what monastic practice does, is that you have a whole support of a whole community and you get up in the morning, you wash your face, you put on your clothes, you go to the meditation hall, you have your breakfast, you do your work, and you're over the edge. And it's okay to be over the edge, but you're also functioning. And the usual idea of over the edge is that you're no longer capable of functioning, you stop functioning because you're over the edge. And just in your daily life, so it means that if you go over the edge in your daily life, you still need to be eating and, you know, sleeping, so that you have the strength and wherewithal to meet what you're meeting over the edge.

[61:49]

In my dream it's not clear what's over the edge, you know, the dream stopped there. We don't know what's down there. You know, what's in store for us in the depths of our being. We don't know that. And yet, if we put our heart into things, then we're putting ourself in a situation where we can meet that. But I can feel like safe here over the edge, but not in the world where I work. Yeah, exactly. So that's why we actually set up places like meditation halls where it's safe to go over the edge, because it's so hard in other situations. But how do you, all I'm saying is how do you bring that to your daily work? And, you know, stay aware and then, you know, I mean you're over the edge with awareness. I'm saying when people around you are not giving that awareness back.

[62:54]

Well, we have to, you know, we have to learn how to be, you know, it's a skill. It's a skill to, you know, depending on what it is, but for instance, like to talk about your anger in such a way that it's constructive rather than destructive. And where you're over the edge, but you're making it, you know, the analogy sometimes in Zen is just that simple one of, let's exist like the, you know, with purity. Maybe exist in the muddy water with purity like a lotus, that our roots are in the mud. You know, that there's a depth to our being, which is the so-called over the edge, and it's in the mud, and it's all very dirty and messy. And our practice in life is how do we transform that into the blossom? You know, with this kind of purity and beauty. And so, yeah, that's not some simple thing.

[63:54]

That's what we're working on all the time. I can't tell you in two or three words, you know, how you do that. But I can just say, yes, that's what we're all, that's what we're working on. And that's what we need to work on. And it may be that, you know, in the situation, practically speaking, a situation you say, well, other people don't let me be like that. Well, that's true. And then you have to find out, you know, the next step. You know, how to express something in a way that actually works in the situation. Which also, you know, which also honors your own heart and your own being, and what's going on for you. But it's just like, I work in hospitals. Yeah, well, that's difficult then. I'm a medical social worker. Right. And I find isolated, my connection to the patients, the people I work with.

[64:55]

But when I have to deal with bureaucracy, the doctors, you know. A lot of the craziness of that, when it's not just one incident that I have to center in, but it's like ten, you know, each minute or something. It's like, I'm amazed how quickly I lose my perspective sometimes. Well, I feel... Like, where's my meditation? Well, again, it seems to me that that means, I mean, that also is to say, we can't always do it in our daily life. And so we need, you know, to set aside some time where we can be reflective. We can return to a kind of stillness or quiet. Then we go back out in the world and lose it. And at that time, well, let's be... You know, another one of the points I'm making in the talk today is, well, at that time that you lose it, how about being patient and kind and good-hearted with yourself and acknowledging your wish or intention to be able to bear it,

[65:59]

to be able to be there. And acknowledge and support that attention and not just be hard on yourself of, you know, I guess you still don't got it together, do you? Boy, you still can't take that. Oh, jeez, you've been practicing all this time. So that doesn't... I mean, I think that's just the way it is. I think we have... You know, for me, I know, for me anyway, I have to just be patient with myself and try to be kind with myself and not too hard on myself about the fact that I don't have somehow, you know, greater, you know, a skillful means, et cetera, to... in the world. The world is tense in various situations. Excuse me. Yes? Yeah. I've heard you speak twice. Both people come here and both times you began by saying, I don't know why I...

[67:00]

Yeah. Well, I felt it again today. I say it because I felt it. But I can't... I've read... the hardest, most difficult aspect of life in your own experience, that is those times when it was the hardest, when... you were on the verge of losing it in some sense, like saying something horrible to someone or having a complete breakdown at some time. I'm wondering... I'm wondering if you could just address that, how your practice helped you in the most difficult periods of your life.

[68:03]

Well... I think the simplest thing is that the most basic thing I learned very early in practice is that probably the worst experiences are the most... you know, I found out that I could survive the worst. And that ended up being much more important and useful than having some great meditation, where I was really concentrated or really clear or this other thing happened or whatever. And I also found out that, you know, for a long time I... Well, I tended to think that practice was about... I tended to think, you know, I set out to produce what I thought of was a really good mind

[69:09]

and being a nice, you know, good person. And I was trying to produce this person or this mind or this body that was like the way it should be or a likable one or a good one Right? And then, no matter how hard I tried, I kept failing at that. And there I'd be, having failed at that. And I finally realized that, I mean, at some point, like, well, it wasn't the point to do that in the first place. And that it was much more to the point that actually when I failed at that and then there I was and I'm no longer even capable of making the effort to produce the acceptable, beautiful person. I can't even, I don't even, you know, I'm not even, I can't even try anymore. And then the world all comes to me and supports me and I'm another person without even having to try. The story I like a lot, which I use oftentimes is

[70:12]

the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara one day decided to save the beings in hell. So she goes to hell and it's very hard to save them and convince them to go anywhere else because that's the only life they know. She says, no, there's this other world. You know, you don't have to stay here. So finally she gets them together and they're going out of hell and then they're all out and she turns around and innumerable more beings have wandered in. And it just literally, you know, it blows her mind. She's gone to all this trouble, all this effort and it's for naught. There's innumerable more beings and literally her head explodes. You know, under those circumstances, and this is what you're saying, right? Under those circumstances she comes apart. This is the Bodhisattva. This isn't just you or me.

[71:16]

So what does she do? You see, she decides, well then Amida Buddha, you know, realizes this and gives her another head. And this is the way our life is. You know, and so what I found out in practice was that you know, when I lose it completely and I blow it completely and my head explodes, my body comes apart, you know, I can't do it, what I wanted to do. I can't be the person I wanted to be. You know, that actually this new body shows up. Without my having to do anything. Without my actually having to create it or make it up or make sure that it's the right body or the right mind or the good body, you know. It's just there. Without my having to do anything. And then at that time the Bodhisattva decides she'll go back again. She doesn't say,

[72:22]

okay, well I've had enough of that. I think, you know, I'm just going to go and, you know, those people don't appreciate it, you know, whatever. She goes back again. And the same thing happens. And her head explodes. The most difficult priority should be being aware of the lessons that are there, with the idea that if you deconstruct and contrast as a result of that experience, if you're aware of the lessons that are there, you'll be reborn as some newer, stronger person. You know, you're reborn, you're reborn, you know, without having to be aware of the lessons. It takes care of itself. So, the Bodhisattva's intention there of, you know, helping beings, of bringing some kindness to other beings, of associating with other beings, and being in the predicament that they're in.

[73:24]

You know, putting herself in the same predicament as others are in. You know, being, and the fact that she does that is, you know, and continues to do that anyway, and comes apart. You know, this is what we're doing. And so, it's not as though, and we do have lessons, but, you know, but that doesn't stop us from coming undone, and receiving a new body, and coming undone, and receiving a new body, and, you know, and our intention sustains us. Our basic kind of, you know, good-heartedness is what sustains us through that. You know, and carries us to the next place in our life. I think that's another school.

[74:31]

We try to say things like that in Zen, you know. The passions are enlightenment, you know, samsara is nirvana. Yeah, we try it that, but, you know, I'm not sure how good we are at it. Yes? I once had a figure in a, a voice in a dream say, you're confusing the struggle to have ideal thoughts and ideal feelings with the gift of divine bliss. And I realized how much I could engage in that and make that kind of confusion. And just to leave a space for those two things, not to be synonymous, gave me a lot of space. But, one of the things I was wondering, I had a little bit of a different take on

[75:38]

something in the dream that you mentioned, and I thought, well, can't there be a level of trust that's like self-deception, you know, where you get on a motor cycle without handlebars, you know, it doesn't go with common sense. It's like, if you know you're going to go off the edge, you know, do you... I'm not sure. There seemed to me to be maybe a, just like a little something in there about... Yeah, I think you're right. And that's the kind of difficulty, I mean, that's one of the difficulties we have in our life, is to have an appropriate kind of container, that's what I was trying to say, the appropriate kind of container or space to go over the edge. Because otherwise, you know, you're in a destructive relationship. Or you're, you know, or you're just, you're going to be in a situation

[76:41]

where you can't come out the other end. So you need, in some way, so it has to go with some kind of common sense, or just still taking care of your situation at a very basic level. You know, one of the priests here, Ison Dorsey, who died a year or so ago, a couple of years probably now, everybody really loved him. People really loved him. He was a very unusual person because he could be with anybody. And you know, he spent years as a, you know, taking all kinds of drugs, and he was a female impersonator, traveled all over the country. But, you know, even at that time, you know, he had a practice. He didn't have religious practice, you know, but he had a practice like he always put his clothes away at night. You know, he's always hung his clothes up in the closet, no matter how smashed he was. And you see it in his life, you know,

[77:43]

his room, things are always in their place. And that was a practice, you know, his practice, without knowing it, you know, he had a certain level of practice of putting, of keeping, you know, a certain orderliness, even though he's in a lot of ways over the edge here. And, you know, it's just, who knows, a lot of other people, he could have been dead, you know. But somehow he had, you know, something there that sustained him through that. You know, he actually had this kind of, there's enough, there's enough little bits, pieces of structure that are sustaining him through this kind of just mess. And then he found Zen, you know, one day he was walking down Haight Street and he looked in the window of this bookstore and there was a picture of Ramana Maharshi and he said, I've got to start meditating. And so the next day he came to Zen Center

[78:47]

and then he used to do meditation and then he would wash and wax the floor of the main Zen Center there every day for something to do. But that was like his practice, you see, it's like, you keep things in order and that sustained him through, you know, his life is going through tremendous changes. You know, and re... you know, where do we go now? And he said, you know, I never stopped liking to do those other things, I just like meditation more. Laughter So we don't, you know, but yeah, so you're right, you know, to go over the edge you do need some kind of structure or some kind of practice or it's one of those, I mean, that's, as I say, that's what, you know,

[79:50]

meditation practice or religious practice, you know, it should give you enough structure so that in some way, you know, because you take care of that much structure then in another way you can be kind of free or you can fall apart or you can, you can actually, but if you do it, because if you do it without that structure or without that support or whatever, or in situations that are not, you know, set up to do that, then yeah, you get attacked and you get, you know, and, and it won't be, you know, it will just end up being destructive and you can go off into spaces, you know, that are real psychosis because you're not also, you don't have your, it's like not having your feet in both worlds. You know, in Zen the idea is that it's not so much that you can say, well, how do I just stay in this world where it all works? How can I just stay there? How come I have to go to this other world

[80:51]

that doesn't work over there? So our, the idea in Zen practice is enter, you know, be in the world that you find yourself in. Find out a function there, but don't, you know, but that doesn't mean that, you know, you abandon the other world completely. You know, you should be, so you can come and go from realms and you don't end up just staying in this one strange place. You know, you should have some connection to these other places that, you know, sustain you and support you. I don't know how to say this, but I'm trying. And that's what happens, whether it's a meditation practice or in a relationship with a teacher or, you know, lots of marriages or, you know, families. You know, that's what would be, you know, because we're actually able to undergo a kind of transformation because there's, and have the difficulty because of the support that's there

[81:52]

in the situation. And it feels painful and everything, but actually we're growing in the situation. And we can do it because there's a kind of, there's some kind of support. And there's a love that is bigger than, you know, what have you done for me lately? Yes? Yes. Yes. I love it.

[83:02]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, people do that occasionally, you know. Yeah. And then we ask them to leave. It's really embarrassing.

[84:12]

Yes. [...]

[85:29]

Yes. Well, I think it's deafening. I might be able to help you out. Yes. I think the way I see it is that if it comes from your heart, it can't be, it won't be, it won't ever be resentment. If you're thinking that you should do something because you're projecting, and other people think you should in order for you to be a good person, then there's going to be resentment. But when it truly comes from your heart, that's compassion. Yes. Yes. I had to call to check on my daughter.

[87:19]

I didn't want to do that, because she was at a friend's house. And I was thinking, well, if I can make a phone call, I don't have to do that. But, you know, I made the phone call, and she was there, and I came. There was no line. I thought I made the right call. Yes. You sort of, you know, you sort of reminded me of... I guess I know, I guess for myself, you reminded me of a couple of things in raising that question, which doesn't necessarily mean... I'm not sure I can, you know, address your question directly. But I know for myself how important it is to acknowledge my own wish for happiness.

[88:22]

You know, may I be happy. May I be healthy. May I be free from suffering. And may I grow in wisdom and compassion. And because it seems to me, I mean, anyway, so from my experience, it seems as much as anything, I have to be willing to give myself a cookie too, as well as the other people. And that the cookie comes if I'm willing to give it to myself. And that when I... If I'm just, you know, trying to be this good person or this kind person, and give the cookies to everybody else, and then when I've proved to myself that I'm good enough, and I've done that well enough, then I can have a cookie. I can wait a long time for a cookie. So I have...

[89:24]

I'm familiar, I think, with what you're bringing up, you know. And that for me is anyway, you know, what it revolves around. And it also means, you know, it also then depends, to some extent, I think it will make a difference, you know, your companions, who you're with. Because some people will notice that you haven't gotten a cookie, and then they'll actually, you know, encourage you to have a cookie. They'll see that you're passing them out and that you're not getting one. And they'll say, gee, you've been passing out cookies, why don't you... you know, you should sit down and let us serve you now. So it does make a difference. You know, it's not... and even people who love you, they don't always notice that you haven't gotten a cookie. But, you know, but there is such a thing as good friends, and, you know, you...

[90:25]

and that you... and also... So anyway, sometimes that makes a difference. Even though, as I say, sometimes even if you just keep waiting for the person, the other people to notice that you haven't gotten a cookie, then they can also take a long time to notice. So, you know, that's really not fair at some point. If they really loved me, they'd notice that I hadn't gotten a cookie. I guess they don't really love me. I guess they don't really care about me. They just care about themselves. But anyway, sometimes people will notice. So again, it does make a difference to find, you know, a good group of people that you like to be with that will at least sometimes notice that and encourage you to take some time and have a cookie for yourself.

[91:26]

Yes? I had a friend tell me that the heart is a very selfish organ, that it takes oxygen and nutrients for itself first and then pumps it out to the rest of the body. And if the heart doesn't take care of itself, then the heart dies and the rest of the body dies. And that it is necessary to take care of yourself so that you can have compassion and give to others. That seems like a very decent advice. Yeah. Ed, I want to tell you something. I trust you with who you are. Okay. The first time I met you. I still remember you. And you were sitting behind a desk.

[92:37]

So, I wanted to share a few things with you. I'm lonely, and that's normal for me. And I'm 45, but I wanted to share a joke because I can't really solve anybody's problem, including my own, so I wanted to make a joke. Which is a true story. This morning, I wanted to go somewhere instead of just smoking around or doing something endlessly. So I thought, well, what does that have to do with you? And I said, oh, I don't want to go up there. I've been gone up there so long, and it's been so long. And I thought, I'll motivate myself. I thought, well, if you can do it for me, I'll do it for you. And if I tell anybody, I want to say, if I tell, this is what I was thinking, if I say that, why I came up here, I'm wondering, who will serve me at the hospital? But there were two beautiful young women that he left, so I felt like, well, there's some angel, or God's angel, that we can see. That's what I like to think.

[93:43]

I don't really know. But, and I wanted to ask one question. I believe in tradition. I believe in tradition, and I believe in the Buddha's teaching, from what I heard, that he discovered the ancient law, which I like to translate as a old, time, very old, very, before, and I wanted to ask you this, if you could give us a quote. This is my hand, my tie, and my shoes. Suzuki Roshi used to say, the whole universe is a classroom, and every phenomenon a teacher. The whole universe is a classroom,

[94:47]

and every phenomenon a teacher. I believe in tradition. I believe in tradition. I encourage everyone to have good traditions, good traditions, good traditions. Thanks for that. Well, yes. I have a question about a story that was in a book. It has to do with being attached to a human being.

[95:49]

And it was about a woman who was so beautiful. She wanted to be a nun, but they didn't let her be a nun, because they thought that she wasn't really serious enough. She burned her face in an island to prove that she wasn't attached to her own being. It seems like most women make a big effort to be attractive. And so, it's just a contradiction. I mean, how can you let go of caring about how you look? Um... Well, I think there's, you know, kind of different ways to look at it, but one of them is the way we've been talking about today.

[96:51]

What is your real wish? And to acknowledge your real wish, or your deep wish. And to keep looking for what, you know, what's finally important in that sense. How you look, or how you feel about yourself.

[97:11]

@Text_v004
@Score_JH